THE CONVERSATION

1. Brian Says:

   March 22nd, 2008 at 10:56 am

   Something stinks with ESPN. I think the Nike billion$ is in on this.

2. Jay Says:

   March 22nd, 2008 at 12:07 pm

   Brian -

   I don’t think Nike is in on this. And I don’t think Oregon spiked the commercial. And it looks like Hank Hosfield doesn’t think Oregon intervened either.

   The simplest explanation is usually the right one. I think ESPN smelled trouble and controversy. Media companies are conservative in their business affairs. Once they figured out that this just wasn’t any old commercial, they pulled out the fine print and pulled the spot.

   Oregon would have been very foolish to squash the commercial because that would have received even more attention. And word would have got out.

   Jay
   DSN

3. Craig Says:

   March 22nd, 2008 at 12:42 pm

   What a shame, it would have been good national exposure for wrestling folks nationwide to see what the UO Admin is doing to UO wrestling - which is basically heartless, cold & criminal.

4. Brian Says:

   March 22nd, 2008 at 2:13 pm

   I hope during the finals tonight the entire crowd of 17,000 chants save Oregon wrestling!!!

5. Richard Says:

   March 22nd, 2008 at 5:20 pm

   I can almost guarantee Kilkenny and Knight had their hands in getting the commercials axed. Those two are sneaky rats who don’t want anymore bad press. They know they are in the wrong and neither are man enough to admit it and do the right thing.

   If you don’t think these two are involved then you might be living in a closet lately.

6. Daniel Says:

   March 22nd, 2008 at 5:26 pm

   Daniel, I had to remove your comment. I’m not sure what your point was, but it was vaguely threatening. Please feel free to clarify it in another post.

   Jay
   DSN

7. Jay Says:

   March 22nd, 2008 at 5:57 pm

   Richard -

   You said it yourself, Kilkenny and Knight don’t want anymore bad press. The U of O Athletic Department is already taking a hit for shuttering the wrestling program. If they don’t want anymore bad press, why would they swat a commercial to save wrestling?

   Supporters of the wrestling programs, there aren’t any black helicopters here. If that’s ESPN’s policy, it’s their policy. The timing was unfortunate. But I don’t think Oregon wanted to, or needed to, get involved.

   Also, I’m not sure what kind of audience the NCAA wrestling championships will get this weekend. Most sports fans are watching the other NCAA tournament. And they are the ones that wrestling needs to reach, not the ones that already support wrestling.

   Jay
   DSN

8. Bill Says:

   March 22nd, 2008 at 7:52 pm

   Jay,
   Thanks for addressing the ESPN denial. We are as you said very passionate, creative, and aggressive. We are not going to quit fighting.

   I do however think you underestimate the impact this commercial could have had. Wrestling fans will be watching the NCAA wrestling Championships, and there are a lot of wrestling fans in this country, and in this state. I think one of Mr. Kilkenny’s many mistakes is that he underestimated the volume and passion of wrestling fans. If you aren’t a wrestler, you don’t have a feel for the sport and how much it means to us. Wrestling is the 5th largest participant sport at the high school level and we are a very tight group.

   The denial will not stop us. The spot is still a valuable tool for us to use. The internet is a wonderful thing.

9. Beestuzz Says:

   March 22nd, 2008 at 8:33 pm

   The guy who beat Gable was Larry Owings was a Husky. No wonder the ad was pulled.

10. Jay Says:

    March 22nd, 2008 at 8:43 pm

    Bill -

    I appreciate the comments. And believe me, I don’t underestimate the power of broadcast advertising.

    However, I don’t think your story needs to be told to a wrestling audience. Your story needs to be told to sports fans who, as you put it, “don’t have a feel for the sport and how much it means to us”. They are the ones that need to feel the sport the way you do and see how much it means to you.

    There’s one other thing I don’t underestimate: the determination of wrestling supporters.

    Jay
    DSN

11. David C. Nelson, College Station, Texas Says:

    March 22nd, 2008 at 9:13 pm

    “The guy who beat Gable was Larry Owings was a Husky. No wonder the ad was pulled.”

    The ad was correct.

    The ad did not say Owings was a Duck. It said he was from Oregon. He was. So were the others mentioned. “America’s first world champion” refers to Robin Reed, from Oregon State.

    Owings went to Canby High School. Yes, then he competed for the UW, but he returned to Oregon in adulthood and spent most of his live here. He is currently a retired teacher, living in Aurora, Oregon.

    The ad was not pulled for factual inaccuracy. It was pulled for the reasons stated in the press release.

12. Jeff Says:

    March 22nd, 2008 at 9:15 pm

    Beestuzz -

    Owings is from Oregon, wrestled for Washington.

13. David C. Nelson, College Station, Texas Says:

    March 22nd, 2008 at 9:31 pm

    “There’s one other thing I don’t underestimate: the determination of wrestling supporters.”

    Jay, may I ask a personal question? Were you an athlete? I’d especially like to know if you competed in an individual sport, such as track, wrestling, or gymnastics. There’s a difference. It’s why some of Save Oregon Wrestling’s biggest supporters are Jon Bowerman and Kenny Moore. They understand the mindset of a wrestler. It’s a lot like the psyche of a track man.

    When a basketball player gets injured or gets winded, the coach pulls him out and puts a fresh player in. If a pitcher loses his stuff, a reliever replaces him.

    If a wrestler gets injured and leaves the mat, the other team gets six points for a forfeit. If he stays and wrestles, and holds the score down, the most his team loses is three points.

    For that reason, quitting is an anathema to wrestlers, as it would be to a track man in the middle of a race. Ron Finley can tell you the story of an Olympian he saw win his Gold Medal match by staying in competition with his fractured arm dangling by his side.

    One of our own Ducks, Olympic silver medalist Greg Gibson, while wrestling for the Marine Corps, once sustained a wicked gash from an opponent’s fingernail. It ran from the corner of his eye socket down the side of his face, all the way to his jawbone.

    The referee stopped the match, but Greg told the navy corpsman (medic) to stitch him up, which he did without anesthesia. Then, with the bleeding stopped, Greg persuaded the referee to let him continue. Behind in the score when the injury occurred, Greg won the match.

    Wrestlers just don’t quit. It’s that simple. Other reasons, in our particular case, is the fanatical devotion that most of Ron Finley’s alumni have to him. They love their old coach and can see what the loss of wrestling is doing to this grand old Duck gentlemen–who built the Duck program into a perennial top-20 power back in those days when college wrestling had 400 teams.

    Ron taught his boys never to quit. They’re just doing what has been ingrained in their ethos since they first started competing.

    They’re just doing what they’ve been

14. Jay Says:

    March 22nd, 2008 at 11:17 pm

    Dave -

    I would be more than happy to answer your question.

    Yes, I played sports. I don’t know if anyone would ever accuse me of being an athlete. But I did play.

    I won’t go into the sports I participated in before High School because…well…who doesn’t participate in just about everything before High School? I know I did, from gymnastics to track to football. But after tearing up one knee in Middle School, my choices became fewer.

    In High School, I played soccer and baseball, and some basketball. Even though I played golf, it conflicted with baseball. And after tearing up the other knee, it pretty much came down to playing baseball (Ron Finley’s son, Mike, was a teammate).

    Actually, I specialized in being the individual on the team. Pitcher in baseball. And Keeper in soccer. I don’t want to get all psycho-babbly here, but I didn’t like the individual sports. I couldn’t run and I didn’t like it. I could golf, but didn’t like being on the course by myself. I preferred the atmosphere of a team, but being able to do my own thing.

    Look, I understand the will and determination of wrestlers. I get it. I don’t think it’s unique to wrestlers. I think other athletes have that, as well. But I get it. Wrestlers won’t quit. And I’m not suggesting that wrestlers and their supporters quit.

    I was about to make a suggestion here, but I’m not going to because it could be taken the wrong way and I don’t know all of the facts. I know that’s a bit of a tease, but I don’t want this discussion to get really ugly, really fast.

    Let’s bring this back to the commercial and the bottom-line of my unwritten suggestion. If I were to make a suggestion to wrestling supporters, it would be this: don’t tell your story to people who are already going to buy it, but can’t do anything about it. Tell your story to an audience that’s not sold on it and can do something about it. And take a long, hard look as to why the right people aren’t buying into your story right now.

    Jay
    DSN

15. joe Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 1:16 am

    blame george bush! common people, get over yourself. no conspiracies. involved. ESPN was right to dump the commercial.

    Jay, what the hell: “I can’t relate to wrestling as a sport,…”

16. David C. Nelson, College Station, Texas Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 5:56 am

    Jay,

    I already apologized by email; I’ll do it publicly. I misread one word of your previous reply. I should not have called you out personally.

    My frustration is with Ducks who take the attitude: Why don’t you guys just give up? You’re going to lose anyway! But I don’t accuse you of having that attitude.

    As for your suggestion that we take the plea to other than the wrestling crowd, yes, we’re doing our best to do that. But, like politicians, we also have to shore up the base. That was the point of the ESPN buy, which would have cost Save Oregon Wrestling about $5,000. That’s why Ron Finley was collecting donations this weekend at the NCAAs. Yes, not too many show up at Mac Court for wrestling, but some 17,000 were in St. Louis for the finals last night.

    As for the other audience you mentioned, the ones who are not sold on it, it’s a challenge. How do you get people to listen who don’t care? However, the Kesey bus episode did just
    that. The AP wire story ran worldwide. That’s how actor Billy Baldwin found out. He read it in the NY Times.

    Since then, the press has picked up the story and run with it. Now, it’s more than wrestling; it’s a public interest story: David versus Goliath. Little guys versus the establishment. Blue collar Oregonians vs. blue-bloods like Kilkenny and Knight.

    Blogs like yours are helping. We appreciate the headline that greeted us when we logged on the DSN this morning. By ourselves we can’t take our story to the masses, but with help we can.

    Thank you!

17. Jay Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 7:36 am

    Dave -

    No need to apologize. And, especially, no need to apologize twice.

    Jay
    DSN

18. Jay Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 7:38 am

    Dave -

    Since you bring up politicians, I’ll mention one last thing: SOW is a political campaign. I don’t know if you guys think of it in those terms, but it is.

    Jay
    DSN

19. Brian Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 10:19 am

    Perhaps I’m missing something, but I don’t think the decision to cut Oregon wrestling or the attempts to rebuff fundraising attempts were under-handed. As a UO grad with a degree in Sports Marketing and an MBA, with considerable experience working in international sports and finance (which I only bring up to lend credibility to my perspective) I see this strictly as a dollars and cents issue. I understand wresting fans are upset. I’m an avid runner. If somebody told me I couldn’t run, I’d fight like hell to get that reversed so I understand the perspective. However, back to the issue at hand, It has been widely noted in the Sports Business Journal that wrestling and baseball cost roughly the same amount to operate. For the sake of simplicity, lets say $100 per anum. I concede neither will be a revenue generating sport on its own, national statistics have shown baseball has the potential to lose less money because it is a growth sport. Let’s do a little math.

    Wrestling Cost ($100)
    Wrestling Rev. $50
    Cost of keeping wrestling and adding an additional women’s sport to meet Title IX requirements $50.
    Net loss to department $100

    Baseball Cost - $100
    Baseball Rev. - ($50)
    Comp Chear Cost - $25
    Income generated by Ems stadium agreement - ($25)
    Net department loss - $50

    Despite the fact that both sports lost money, in relative terms, baseball is actually a revenue generating sport because it loses less money on an annual basis.

    Let’s be realistic. Baseball is coming. By law, if wrestling were to stay, an additional women’s sport would have to be added. The numbers above are purely fictiction, but to save wrestling you have to take into account the cost of adding an additional women’s sport. To be fair, you also have to take into account the additional income (not revenue) generated through the Ems lease agreement.

    While I feel for wrestling fans and freely admit that I know nothing of the sport, know that I’m not much of a baseball fan either. I ask you to objectively ponder this question. When was the last time you heard a son ask his father to go in the backyard and wrestle versus play catch?

    Do I think losing wrestling will be tough for fans of the sport? Yes. Do I wish you well in your quest to revive two sports (wrestling and anothe r women’s sport)? Yes. Do I think the city has a buzz about it because of the institution of baseball? Yes. Do I think the UO is acting sneaky and under-handed? No. I think this was a business decision. Keep in mind that the UO is one of the few solvent and self-supporting athletic departments in DI athletics. Kilkenny is tasked with the role of making tough business decisions to ensure it stays that way.

    Feel free to blast away at the impossibility and implausibility of my attempted objective arguement. I know that’s how these forums work. However, don’t expect a response from me. I have given my perspective and don’t intend to get into a debate. I’ve got more important things to do with my life, like spend time with my wife getting our nursery ready.

    Good luck in your efforts!

20. Brian Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 10:57 am

    Nice math. Now consider the wrestling program is offering the U of Oregon a free sport, and a free facility. All the wrestlers want are to be called Ducks. How can Oregon lose money when they are not putting any money into it? The wrestling community is willing to pay the cost of the program. Can you figure out why the administration keeps saying no? It’s illogical to me.

21. Richard Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 11:12 am

    Exactly. You guys fail to realize that UO wrestling is raising money to fund the sport through an endowment in which it will really cost the school nothing to have. Plus, they are getting a facility built for free.

    Baseball isn’t being asked to do that or offering. They only had to raise roughly $1.5 million to get the sport back and Kilkenny said the school would take care of the rest. How is that not losing money? Wrestling cost $650,000 to run with their current facility which was perfectly okay.

    And yes we are spreading the message to outside people, but at the same time Kilkenny and Knight are working very hard to keep that from happening. Why? What are they afraid of? How would it hurt the school to give these kids and future kids the opportunity to not only go to school there, but compete in the sport they want and not have to choose one Nike is telling them to choose?

    And again, the message is getting out. William Baldwin is on board and he single handily brought back Bloomsburg U recently. The Kesey’s are involved, now the Bowerman’s. And if you don’t think people from other sports don’t enjoy it, look at guys like Ronnie Lott and Marshall Faulk who have been quoted as saying they never miss an NCAA Wrestling Championship.

    The bottom line is every athlete deserves a shot to compete at the D1 level at the school of their choice. And anyone who thinks otherwise just doesn’t have a clue.

22. David C. Nelson, College Station, Texas Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 11:17 am

    “Feel free to blast away at the impossibility and implausibility of my attempted objective argument. I know that’s how these forums work. However, don’t expect a response from me. I have given my perspective and don’t intend to get into a debate.”

    Well, in that case, Bryan, I guess I’ll blast away for the benefit of others. Now that you’ve enlightened us with your wisdom, you should feel no obligation to listen to countervailing opinions from us mere peons who don’t have a degree in sports marketing with an MBA.

    So, while you’re getting your nursery ready, here’s the problem with your argument–for the benefit of the less enlightened.

    You should start with numbers that are valid, and with a correct understanding of how Title IX affects the need to add women’s sports.

    Your first erroneous statement: “It has been widely noted in the Sports Business Journal that wrestling and baseball cost roughly the same amount to operate.”

    Wrong. Oregon’s wrestling budget last year was $629,000. The average colllege baseball budget is more than $1.1 million. Wrestling costs approximately half of what baseball costs.

    How do I know? A few months ago I filed a series of state open records act requests with state universities in five major conferences: the ACC, SEC, Big 12, Pac-10, and Big 10. Some 36 schools responded with detailed baeball budget data. The average net loss in Division 1-A baseball is one million dollars per year.

    That happens at the top and at the bottom. For example, both Oregon State and the University of Texas have won two College World Series titles in the past decade. Last season, OSU spent $1,303,620 on baseball and took in $275,000 in revenue. Net loss: $1,028,620.

    Texas, spent a whopping $2,274,430 on baseball. Revenues: $$775,506. Baseball-earmarked donations: $231,733. Net loss: $1,267,191.

    A few other examples: Clemson spent $1,459,885 and had revenues of $573,899. Oklahoma budgeted $1,980,000 and made $405,000. UCLA spent $1,149,000 and brought in $213,000.

    Only one college baseball team in the land makes money on a year-over-year basis, LSU, which barely turns a profit although it enjoys a season ticket sellour ot 7,000-seat Alex Box Stadium

    The national average: $1,148,250 in expendatures. $273,652 in revenue. $93,156 in baseball-specific donations. Average net loss: $781,442.

    That seems to exceed the wrestling budget, in my way of looking at the numbers. Of course, I don’t have a degree in sports marketing, nor an MBA.

    But it doesn’t take a numbers cruncher to undestand this: George Horton announced his first recruiting class on Nov. 17. Only two of the 17 signees are Oregonians. Thus, as the 11.7 baseball scholarships are divided up, the majority will go to pay tuition at out-of-state rates.

    By comparison, some 70% of Oregon’s wrestlers are graduates of Oregon high schools. Thus, of Oregon’s 9.9 wrestling scholarships, the majority fund tuition at less espensive in-state rates.

    Even a journalism major like myself, with an advanced degree in history, can understand that math.

    Second Erroneous Statement: “By law, if wrestling were to stay, an additional women’s sport would have to be added. ”

    Gosh, I didn’t know you were a lawyer, also!

    You must have missed Asst. AD Neal Zoumboukous’ interview in the Daily Emerald, where he admitted what the wrestling folks have maintained all along: that Title IX did not play a significant factor in the dropping of wreslting and addition of baseball. He omitted any reference to gender equity in his latest interview with Ducks Illustrated.

    The fact is that whether Oregon drops or retains wrestling, under “Prong 2″ of the compliance criteria used by major universities to meet gender equities in sports, Oregon will have to add another women’s sport in two to three years.

    Oregon, like most universities, is not in compliance with Title IX first criterion, that is, proportional sports opportunities according to the percentage of men and women enrolled. So, like most, it falls back on the “Prong 2,” the periodic addition of opportunities.

    Oregon could keep wrestling, and with the addition of competitive cheer, meet the criteria for adding women’s sports. However, in the next three to four years, the athletic department must fund another female sport–just to keep up with legalities.

    Third Dubious Statement: “When was the last time you heard a son ask his father to go in the backyard and wrestle versus play catch?”

    When is the last time you wrestled with your kid on the living room carpet? Apparently, Oregon fathers do so quite often. According to numbers on the Oregon School Activities Association web site, last year 4,762 Oregonians participated in high school wrestling. At one quarter of Oregon high schools, there were more wrestlers than basketball players.

    One thing about that nursery, Bryan. I don’t know if your kid will be a boy or a girl, but if he’s a small boy without lightening speed or a strong throwing arm, he just might find his niche in wrestling, that is, if you stay in Oregon. However, if we don’t keep wrestling at the UO, he might have a harder time getting an athletic scholarship.

23. Jay Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 11:43 am

    Just got back from brunch after church this morning. While we were eating, I talked to someone about the lively nature of this ongoing discussion.

    One of the things I mentioned was that the wrestling community believes that Kilkenny has been dishonest with them. As soon as I said that, this particular person, familiar with Oregon athletics, said that if that’s how wrestling supporters feel, then they have lost all credibility with him.

    So, here’s another suggestion. I know losing the sport is personal, but I would suggest that wrestling supporters cut out the anti-Kilkenny sentiment all together. From everyone I’ve talked to, they have uniformly said that Kilkenny’s word is as good as gold. He’s also been described as a good and honest man.

    I think it’s a hard sell for people to believe that a small town Oregon boy done good who is donating his time the University he loves is a bad guy. And it’s those people who believe in Kilkenny that you need to win over.

    One more thing: wrestling supporters believe that they’ll have a good shot at bringing back the sport with the next AD. So, Mike Bellotti is a wrestling fan? If he’s not, how do think he views this campaign?

    Jay
    DSN

24. Brian Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 12:04 pm

    I see this strictly as a dollars and cents issue. If it’s strictly dollars and cents, why did Kilkenny tell a donor that 20 million dollar is not enough to wrestle next year? He quoted that to a reporter, and it was in the paper. The wrestling people were being nice to Kilkenny. I emailed him a number of times with my concern. I was always nice. He never once responded. His excuses change every day. I question his honor, and integrity. He has given me every reason to question him.

25. Jay Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 12:14 pm

    Brian -

    I understand your frustration. All I’m saying is that I think it’s a bad idea to make this about Kilkenny vs. Oregon Wrestling. Because it starts to look personal. And as soon as that happens, people either take sides (and that’s not in wrestling’s favor with most Duck fans) or they don’t want any part of it. Either way, that approach is a bad way to go.

    Question it privately. Make a different argument publicly.

    Jay
    DSN

26. Richard Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 12:23 pm

    “From everyone I’ve talked to, they have uniformly said that Kilkenny’s word is as good as gold. He’s also been described as a good and honest man.”

    Its funny how a handful of people could honestly think this about a guy who people from his hometown have nothing but ill words to say about the guy and have never once described him as “honest” or having “integrity.”

    Kilkenny have personally told numerous wrestlers on the team this year that if the money was raised, they’d bring it back. However, in the same breathe in public, totally denies ever saying that. At the beginning of all of this, he told people in my home town if the wrestling team raised $4.5 million, they;d bring it back, however, when the coach approached him about it, he flat out denied it.

    The point is, the wrestling people have been quite honest with everything they’ve done and Kilkenny has been quite dishonest with everything he’s done and this has been proven time and time again. Maybe the Nike dollars are clouding a lot of outside people’s judgement on who is really running their athletic dept.

27. David C. Nelson, College Station, Texas Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 12:24 pm

    Jay: “I think it’s a hard sell for people to believe that a small town Oregon boy done good who is donating his time the University he loves is a bad guy. And it’s those people who believe in Kilkenny that you need to win over.”

    I have a hard time accepting the Honest Pat moniker because of the statements he had made regarding baseball profitability. For example, from the Portland Tribune of Jan. 15:

    Pat: “There’s a lot of schools making money in the baseball business. They sell tickets. Advertising opportunities, skyboxes.”

    http://www.portlandtribune.com/sports/story.php?story_id=120034761867256700

    My own research, referred to in my preceding post, refutes this claim. Now, this isn’t just a wag, such as Kilkenny’s initial estimate of an $800,000 annual baseball budget, followed six weeks later by the hiring of a $400,o00 coach. I could attribute that to his learning a lot about the realities of baseball in such a short time.

    But after he has flown all around the country talking to athletic directors about college baseball, and he comes up with a statement that “lots of schools are making money in the baseball business,” I have to question whether Pat lets the facts get in the way of a good story.

    The folks you had lunch with are probably pretty happy with the way Pat is skippering the ship, and thus have no reason to question him. It’s easy to get caught up in Kilkenny mania, unless you examine his performance of duty with a critical eye. Most Duck fans don’t want to do that.

28. Brian Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 12:29 pm

    Jay,

    You stated in “wrestlers are the toughest athletes on campus” last week that there are people in the athletic department who don’t like wrestling, and think it’s gross. I can only assume that Kilkenny is one of those people. Why should we respect this man? I would give him a little respect if he were honest and came out and said “We are not wrestling next year because I don’t like it, and think it’s gross” Respect is earned, and he has not earned it with the wrestling community.

29. Richard Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 12:31 pm

    Privately is exactly what Kilkenny wants. He doesn’t want anyone knowing what’s going on. Just like when he originally cut the program without even consulting the student body or the staff about it(who were all against it) and he stated quite vigorously how he could just go over the top of them without following school protocol. He’s told numerous people that he can’t believe we didn’t just roll over and go away once the cut was announced.

    This whole deal has been quite dishonest from the beginning when they hired a guy for a job that requires a degree, when in fact he didn’t have one. Letting that slide showed me how much “intergrity” has been involved.

    As long as Kilkenny decides to be very dishonest and lack intergrity with this issue, the wrestling people as well as many other disgruntled alumni in our corner, will keep this in the public eye and not hide in the shadows like Kilkenny wants us to.

30. Jay Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 12:34 pm

    David & Richard -

    “It’s easy to get caught up in Kilkenny mania, unless you examine his performance of duty with a critical eye. Most Duck fans don’t want to do that.”

    That’s my point. Regardless of whether it’s true or not, Duck fans believe Mr. Kilkenny to be all the things you emphatically believe him not to be. That being the case (and Duck fans won’t turn a critical eye towards him), wrestling supporters need to roll with it.

    Calling someone a liar, whether it’s true or not, is not the right tactic.

    By the way, I think the discussion is great. I just need to keep in mind the fact that I’m going back and forth with wrestlers because you guys are wearing me out.

    Jay
    DSN

31. Richard Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 12:44 pm

    But what you need to realize is we have a voice in things as well and aren’t just you’re everyday push overs.

    We’re tired of all these primadonnas with a little bit of cash trying to dictate how we should do things. Now they get a little blowback from it all and we’re the bad guys for doing it? This is something they have lost years ago while hiding behind all their dollars.

    People at UO nowadays are so easily swayed by the glitz and glamour the school is portaying and forgetting about what they are losing at the same time. The wrestlers have never bought into the philosophy. They do their sport for the love of it, not for the money. The school has lost sight of that and Kilkenny and Nike are trying to do away with that mentality.

    And if you don’t think Nike doesn’t have a direct influence over this, you’re lying to yourself. I was told recently that the Bowerman’s and Knights no longer are on the same kind of terms they once were. Bill Bowerman, when he thought of Nike shoes he always thought about how to make a better shoe. Knight on the other hand could only think how he was going to make more money off of it.

    Money is the root of all evil and Kilkenny is a perfect example of it.

32. Richard Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 12:52 pm

    I do also want to comment on the fact this discussion has been quite civil and I appreciate the opportunity to continue discussing this matter. This is something that will be in the public eyes for awhile now and everyone needs to know what’s going on.

33. David C. Nelson, College Station, Texas Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 1:05 pm

    (If this is a double post, I apologize. Please delete the repetition.)

    Jay,

    The problem is that we’re running out of options. Most wrestlers took the high road and pulled their punches early on. (Sorry about the mixed metaphors.)

    The turning point came on Feb. 27 when Neal Zoumboukas contradicted the athletic department’s long-held assertion, expressed since the July 13 press conference, regarding Title IX as the primary reason for dropping wrestling.

    http://media.www.dailyemerald.com/media/storage/paper859/news/2008/02/27/Sports/Down-For.The.Count-3237333.shtml?reffeature=recentlycommentedstoriestab

    This was the public flip-flop that got the news media interested. It’s what caused Dwight Jaynes of the Portland Tribune to question the decision.

    How do you deal with an assertion, expressed by Kilkenny just a few weeks ago in the Salem Statesman-Journal, that the wrestling team has “no place to compete?”

    http://uowrestling.proboards83.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1205886996

    How do you react when Kilkenny and Zoomer say the Pac-10 has only four schools which wrestle, when the Conference web site lists all ten–and this has been the way it’s been for two decades?

    http://uowrestling.proboards83.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1205886996

    Yes, six of these schools are added to the conference just for wrestling, but that’s not a unique situation. Other conferences have been known to add auxiliary members in specific sports.

    In this case, Oregon will be the first traditional Pac-10 team to drop wrestling in 23 years! Gosh, it took us a while to realize that Cal-Davis, ranked 70 points ahead of Oregon academically in the last US News ratings of American universities, was not worthy of associating with us.

    Honestly, Jay, how do you deal with these constant spin moves and misrepresentations of the facts without finally braking down and questioning where the athletic department need flame-proof pants?

    If you don’t call their bluff when they say something you disagree with, their misstatements become truisms.

    BTW, sorry to “wear you out.” But thanks for giving us a forum to do it.

34. Jay Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 4:13 pm

    Richard (or is it rrockwell?) -

    I’m not in the dark here. I’m going to try to bottom-line this entire discussion one more time. So, here it goes…

    The vast majority of Duck fans don’t get wrestling. And, please, don’t try to convince me otherwise. At this point, they just don’t get it (If they did, would we be having this discussion? No.). And if they don’t get it, they can’t get behind it.

    To start off with, forget everything that has happened up until this point. Throw it all out. Looking back will do no one any good.

    Moving forward, wrestling has to tell its story and convince Duck fans why it is important for Oregon to keep the program. And that story has nothing to do with the behind-the-scenes drama.

    Look, I probably am in the dark on all of the gossipy details of this story. But what I’m not in the dark about is what Duck fans buy into and what they don’t (We see the numbers everyday on Duck Sports News.). And, right now, Duck fans aren’t buying wrestling.

    From my perspective, as odd as this sounds, wrestling supporters are too close to the campaign to make arguments that the average sports fan can buy.

    How about this? How would you make your case to Duck fans who are a blank slate? They don’t know wrestling. They don’t know Pat Kilkenny. They don’t know Phil Knight. They don’t know Ron Finley. They don’t know Nike. They don’ know the Bowerman or Kesey names. They don’t know TitleIX.

    Forget everything you know about wrestling. And make an argument for wrestling to a person just like that.

    Jay
    DSN

35. Jay Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 4:24 pm

    David -

    “Honestly, Jay, how do you deal with these constant spin moves and misrepresentations of the facts…”

    Real quickly, here’s how: you make an argument that doesn’t have anything to do with the facts. No one is interested in a he-said-he-said debate of the facts.

    All I want wrestling supporters to do is tell me a personal and emotive story that I can relate to as a Duck fan, sports fan, and person. That’s it.

    Unfortunately, it’s a lot easier said, than done.

    Jay
    DSN

36. UO alum Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 5:27 pm

    You should have watched the 2 days of coverage on ESPN channels this weekend if you wanted a story. How about Anthony Robles from Arizona State? Born with one leg and competes his butt off. Can run an eight minute mile on crutches, has never used a prosthetic, finished second at the conference tourney and advanced to the round of 12 at the NCAA Championships. One of the biggest testiments of courage you will ever see, if you open your eyes and watch. A great young man to go along with it. There are too many to list. Do me a favor and watch some of the matches from this weekend and see what you think. If you don’t like it, that is ok, you can still support others having an opportunity to pursue it. Just like many other sports out there. Again, wrestling being offered at a university near you at no cost to the university! What a deal. By the way, my son and I wrestle at home almost every night. And apparently we are not alone, as statistics will show that wrestling in this state ranks right up there in terms of participation at the high school level with many sports that you or Pat K may follow, even baseball.

37. Brian Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 6:00 pm

    Again, when did college athletics become more about the fan, than the athlete? Can someone answer that for me? When did ignorance take the place of common sense? The wrestling supporters are offering the University of Oregon a free sport, and free facility! They want to build a locker room for the women’s tennis team. Why won’t they take this sweet offer? I sincerely believe Kilkenny is set in his ways to get back at some wrestling people who have called him on his lies. He has the power and he knows it. He does not like wrestling, or the people associated with it. He is determined to axe this sport. The problem is, he has no good reason to do it, and we know it. He knows it too. The only people he is truly hurting are the kids today. It’s more than wrestling. It doesn’t matter if you like wrestling, or hate wrestling. It’s about doing the right thing. He is taking away opportunities for todays youth, and that reeks. They are the victims in this terrible decision, that is more about Kilkenny’s fragile ego than doing what is right.

38. David C. Nelson, College Station, Texas Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 6:46 pm

    “All I want wrestling supporters to do is tell me a personal and emotive story that I can relate to as a Duck fan, sports fan, and person. That’s it.”

    Well, Jay, I thought we were doing that:

    –A one-legged ASU wrestler who was good enough to make the NCAA tournament.
    – A Duck Olympian who refused to quit and had his face stitched without anesthesia.
    –The 4,762 Oregonians who made wrestling the second-most-popular boys winter high school sport last year.
    –The fact that Kilkenny has said there are “lots of schools making money in the baseball business” when, in fact, there is ONE, and the average loss is $781,442. That’s not he-said, she-said. It a fact.

    How much more personal and emotive can we get?

39. UO alum Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 6:50 pm

    More lies….or at least not knowing the facts. I am not sure which is worse, but come on Zoomer. If you are going to spout out at least know your facts. he states that no conference has all of their members offering wrestling. I was at the NCAA tournament this weekend and I saw all 11 teams from the Big 10 conference represented. Many conferences do not, he is right, the Pac 10 is surely one of them. Granted the Pac 10 has not had a member institution drop a program in about 23 years. Many programs were dropped and we know the main reasons for that, but that is another converstaion piece. But come on Neal Zamboukas, at least get your dang facts straight. I know that you are just being Pat’s lapdog and tending to the business that he does not want to tend to. But your comments only further the notion that this decision and the department has been inept and dishonest all along.

40. Zane Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 8:03 pm

    We have 3 million raised!!!!!!

    Since when does the UofO Athletic dept. turn down millions in donations?

    Killkenny said 20 million won’t be enough!!!

    This does not sound like it is about money…so, it must be personal?

41. Jay Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 8:16 pm

    David -

    I think you guys are headed in the right direction. But you need to find a story specifically about an Oregon wrestler, and leave the anti-Killkenny stuff on the sideline. It could be about a current wrestler, former wrestler, or a high school wrestler who wanted to wrestle at Oregon. And then, a lot of people need to see that one message.

    If all of those things can come together (one story, one message, one goal), I think it could be effective. But a lot, and I mean a lot, of people are going to need to see it. And, I know, that means money.

    Jay
    DSN

42. truth seeker Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 8:20 pm

    These are the various reasons that have so far been used.

    Title 9-wrong

    Money-wrong, if it was a problem, hard to believe anyway, donations and pledges have wiped it away.

    Facility-wrong

    Competition facility-wrong, umm, where is volleyball, basketball playing next year

    non interest-wrong, and anyway let’s compare this sport to others still open for business at UO

    It is comical and embarrasing that Frohmayer has let this get to where it is. Please Pat K, Rene, Dave F-just tell us that you are not interested in it, don’t like it, think it is gross and un-country club like. Just tell the truth, you are impartially against it and want it dead. And that you dont care if it is killing opportunities for young men in our state.
    Just be upfront about the fact that you have been thinking about it for 5 yrs. or so. Tell us about the time when senior women’s associate AD Rene Baumgardner’s husband told one of the wrestlers who was student teaching at the man’s school that if his wife had anything to do with it, wrestling would be gone! Come on, tell us the truth instead of all this other BS. And that happened Duck Fans!

43. David Gillaspie Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 10:46 pm

    “…you need to find a story specifically about an Oregon wrestler…It could be about a current wrestler, former wrestler, or a high school wrestler who wanted to wrestle at Oregon.”

    It’s not right to nominate a guy, but…

    This is the guy. Read his bio. Look at the time he puts into the community. He’s a Duck, he’s a very active, well rounded, family man, a very busy guy fighting the good fights.

    http://www.phga.org/cgi-bin/display.cgi?page=2007chieftain

44. Richard Says:

    March 23rd, 2008 at 11:21 pm

    Read another recent article where Zoomer tries to shine everyone on, but gets rebuked in his efforts to save face after spilling the beans about Title 9 not being an issue. A lot of the supposed facts Zoomer spews are quite slanted.

    http://uowrestling.proboards83.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1206314734

45. Jay Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 8:22 am

    Richard R.-

    As far as Zoomer is conerned, I’ve read all the articles. I know exactly what you’re talking about. And, logically, what you’re saying makes sense.

    But, here’s the but…Most people don’t know what Title IX is. While you might be right about the Title IX issues, that’s not your most compelling argument. Sure, that point might go to you, but it’s like you’re proving a negative (reacting and countering an argument), as opposed to providing a positive (actively making an argument that’s not a response to anything the Athletic Department has claimed).

    I would like to see a wrestling argument that tugs at my heart, where there is no counter-argument.

    Jay
    DSN

46. CV3000 Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 10:10 am

    There was a national champion two years ago.

    That makes it more successful than 95% of the other sports sponsored by UO.

    No counter-argument to that.

47. Richard Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 10:38 am

    Its my compelling arguement because that’s the very excuse Kilkenny is still using, even though its false. His arrogance is clouding his thinking on this one.

    CV3000, great point.

48. CV3000 Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 11:16 am

    The wrestling team is, historically, much more successful than either the football or basketball team.

    No counter-argument to that.

49. CV3000 Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 11:16 am

    The wrestling team has more All-Americans than the football and basketball teams–combined.

50. CV3000 Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 11:17 am

    No counter-argument to that.

51. Jay Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 11:19 am

    CV3000 & Richard -

    I’m sorry, but you’ve got to do better than that. I know it’s tough, but you do.

    You need to make an argument that fans of football and basketball will buy. They’re your target audience. Telling them that Kilkenny is a bad guy and that your sport is more successful than theirs ain’t gonna cut it.

    I think the solution is out there. I just don’t think you’ve found it, yet.

    Jay
    DSN

52. Brian Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 11:22 am

    This zoomer guy says high school wrestling is a healthy sport. Where does he think high school coaches come from? The good ones come from college programs. This killing off of college wrestling because everyone else is doing it has a trickle down effect that is hurting high school wrestling. Too many coaches with just a high school background, and no college degree coaching these days. They coach for a few extra bucks to suppliment their pay working at the carwash. The logic of eliminating a sport because you think everyone else is doing it is absurd. Why not go and kill some endangered animals? Everyone else is killing them. Also he doesn’t do any homework. He says 50% of the schools in the Big 10 have wrestling. It’s 100%

53. CV3000 Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 11:35 am

    Here’s the solution:

    Innovate. Be a pioneer. Do something different. Change the sport by changing the way that people perceive the sport.

    NCAA Style Wrestling is a fairly restrictive sport. Use all of this money that they’re raising to create a college version of MMA fighting. It’s the same athletes; it’s the same fans …plus people who are just casual sports fans.

    It would become an overnight sensation and PACK whatever building they put it in.

    Tell me how that wouldn’t work.

54. Jay Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 11:37 am

    Brian -

    Good job. There’s an argument I can buy. The trickle- down argument.

    No numbers. No name-calling. No he-said-she-said.

    Eliminating Oregon wrestling hurts education.

    Now show me a profile of that guy and the students he affects.

    That’s your story. Or at least a story.

    No Wrestling = Less Education

    Jay
    DSN

55. Jay Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 11:47 am

    CV3000 -

    Your solution is spot on.

    Wrestling, as a sport, has to do something different. The loss of wrestling at the U of O is only symptomatic of the bigger challenges wrestling is facing.

    It’s going to take a big campaign to do that. And I think it’s a good idea.

    But is it enough to save Oregon wrestling? Probably not at this time.

    Nationally, wrestling needs to pull together and promote their sport in order to save it.

    And it’s thinking differently about wrestling that could save it.

    Jay
    DSN

56. CV3000 Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 11:47 am

    The Less Education argument is the other side of the tennis comparison. The majority of the tennis kids are from countries that have free university systems. They don’t need tennis to pay for college.

    Any guesses on how many of those international kids stay in Oregon when they’re finished with college? No idea, but it’s probably not as many as the wrestling team. 10 scholarships a year doesn’t seem like a lot, but it could have a much bigger long term benefit to our state if the people stay here.

57. Richard Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 11:51 am

    It does get promoted at the schools in which an AD allows it to be. However, there are a lot of AD’s like Kilkenny who don’t want it to be promoted because then interest may grow and that would take away from FB or BB.

58. Jay Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 11:58 am

    Richard -

    I understand what you’re saying. But wrestling needs a national campaign that’s outside of the higher education system.

    Think Oregon Lottery and their tag: “It does good things”.

    Just bigger.

    Jay
    DSN

59. CV3000 Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 12:03 pm

    Those same Big 10 schools that have popular wrestling teams today, had VERY popular boxing teams in the 1920s.

    It was not unusual for 15-20,000 people to show up at a home meet at the University of Wisconsin–back before people had cars and in a time when Madison only had about 40,000 people.

    (They didn’t have cable back then, of course.)

    The bottom line is that I can’t see any MMA team losing money like all baseball teams do.

    Ultimately, it would become more popular than men’s basketball at most colleges outside of the perennial top 20. It wouldn’t just save wrestling, it would save all of the non-revenue sports: track, tennis, golf, swimming, gymnastics, softball, women’s hoops, crew, tiddlywinks, chess, “competitive” cheerleading.

    It would allow for schools not named Stanford to finally be in compliance with Title 9. And it would make the erroneous revenue projections a reality to justify building the new arena.

    Right under our nose.

60. CV3000 Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 12:16 pm

    That’s something that Kilkenny, Nike (a chance to make money at a new sport where there’s no dominant brand names! Are you kidding me?), and regular people (especially reluctant legislators and taxpayers) could really get behind, I’m sure.

    How exciting would it be to have that new arena packed–with all of the gym floor full of seats too–the pep band, the student section on their feet, and a spotlight focused on 2 guys ready to tap each other out?

61. Brian Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 12:29 pm

    I love MMA. I don’t think it would work in college, because it would be very difficult to complete a season of training, and competing. A single wrestling tournament is very gruelling on the body. Imagine how hard it would be to be kicked, punched, and have your joints bent to the breaking point. To have it in college, you would need it in high school. Not too many parents out there would approve. The guys in MMA are highly trained, and it attracts a rare breed of athlete. I wrestled in college, but would not want anything to do with MMA. I do think wresling could adopt some submission holds. If your opponent taps out he loses. The big draw in MMA though is the knockout.
    Jay, I’ve mentioned the lack of good coaches in emails to Kilkenny, and the U president. Again, no response from those guys. They don’t care.

62. Jay Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 12:39 pm

    Brian -

    Dave and Pat don’t have to buy the argument. Wrestling has to persuade the people around them. Then, they in turn can exert pressure.

    Jay
    DSN

63. Ron Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 1:15 pm

    Actually, wrestling is the most underrepresented male sport in the country. For the number of HS participants compared to the college opportunities for these athletes, it is just not there. Look at the State of Washington. They have no college program and more then 6,000 HS wrestlers. This could actually be a title IX issue nationwide.

64. CV3000 Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 2:18 pm

    Just take away the punches to the face while standing, give ‘em some boxing headgear, perhaps shorten the rounds a little and maybe give some points for special techniques or moves like throws or whatever to decide matches that don’t end via tap-out? There’s got to be a way to balance it out and make it more collegiate.

    It would probably not be realistic to have more than two matches in a weekend, but you might be able to. And there would probably have to be a rule that if you got punched out–then you couldn’t compete for a certain number of days. I think it would just change the competition format from dual meets and tournaments into just dual meets once a week or so. 10-15 competitions per season instead of 30.

    It would be more like the competition schedule for football.

65. CV3000 Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 2:58 pm

    Hold it in the spring, and watch it outdraw baseball.

66. Brian Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 3:34 pm

    First, you would have to sell MMA to the NCAA. Not too many schools pick up a sport that’s not sanctioned by the NCAA. The exception would be Oregon who is adding cheer, which is not sanctioned by the NCAA. They say the PAC 10 does not support wrestling. Only one other division one school in the United States has cheer. The logic of that athletic department baffles me.
    MMA has a whole set of different rules. You would have to overhaul the entire sport. I doubt too many wrestling coaches are experts in teaching submission grappling, or how to counter punches, and kicks. The officials would have to learn a new sport as well. It might be a good idea to have some MMA fighters have matches at a wrestling tournament, or meet. They could fight during intermissions, or before, and after a meet. I’m sure that would draw some new fans to the sport.

67. CV3000 Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 6:00 pm

    (The Pac 10 also doesn’t support women’s lacrosse, but we’re digressing.)

    It doesn’t have to start as an NCAA sport. And it won’t.

    I imagine that it would have to start as a club/exhibition sport, or create its own association (how hard could that be?) like Men’s Crew or ‘Competitive’ Cheer has now, since neither are NCAA sports.

    They would have mythical national championships at first, and it might take a while to get off the ground, but it really wouldn’t take that long–and it will probably grow faster than almost any other sport ever has. (well, it’s because it’s not really a new sport)

68. Bob Storlie Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 10:07 pm

    Every child is born with certain gifts—but some are never given the chance to develop or identify those talents–children are usually the products of the environment –their parents put them in–either because of financial reasons or in many cases—parents that just don’t care and are self absorbed–so their children never have the chance to reach their full potential –as a parent of four children–I refused to accept the status quo from school administrators and athletic directors–who could care less about my children–and have NO time for parents that challenged their decisions–my wife and I watched as after school sports were dropped–and the taxpayers were expected to accept the careless handling of the schools budgets–but this was at the grade and high school levels–we were fortunate that an exceptional ex-college wrestler encouraged our son’s to come out and wrestle–even breaking the rules and letting a fourth grader work out with his older brothers–what our boys learned on the wrestling mats–the commitment, work ethic, importance of grades, and how their character was developed–lead them to become a US National Team member, members of three National Championship teams, Head coach of a Division One team, Potential Olympian and their sister that watched– just won Eighth in the World in Quarter Horse competition—and too many other awards to list–and now each is giving back to their respective sports—We are NOT sure if anything close to these success’ would have happened without the basic work ethic that wrestling ingrained in our children–to never give up–to keep trying–if one thing didn’t work—try another–but now –with seven grandchildren and soon #8– announced at Easter–we see the same story—school administrator and athletic director–with only their self-interest and ego’s–and absolutely NO concern in what is right for all student/athletes and the taxpayers of Oregon—I cannot tell you the contempt I feel for Dave Frohnmayer and Pat Kilkenny–as they pander to the sky-box, private jet, gromet dinners, donor lounges and big money interests–as they turn their backs and use the staff of the athletic department to disseminate bare-face mistruths to the faulty, students, athletes, donors, alumni, the press and to Senators and State Representatives.
    This complete disregard for the truth has already
    damaged the University of Oregon name– all over the country. Pat Kilkenny may have the people in his inner circle convinced that he knows what he is doing—but I will bet 10 to 1–that he bleeds red-ink—and after he goes home to San Diego, California–the taxpayers of Oregon–will get to clean up the mess and pay the bills–and our children and grandchildren will be the losers–as he eliminates the fabric and traditions that have turned 1000’s of Oregonians into the kind of people I am proud to know–the wrestlers—Bob Storlie–Donor–to Save Oregon Wrestling–Disgusted Alumni

69. Bob Says:

    March 24th, 2008 at 10:30 pm

    I would like to present a few facts, then ask a couple of questions. U of O wrestling’s roster has 14 Oregonians out of 18 on the roster. Football (18 out of 99) and track (24 out of 68) are the only men’s sports with more Oregonians. Wrestling’s graduation rate the past three years has been 75%, 79%, and 89%. This ranks either one or two among all men’s sports at U of O, and much higher than the most recent U of O all-student graduation rate of 62%. As a state university, shouldn’t the U of O have an obligation to the residents of the state? I know some legislators have written Dr. Frohnmeyer recommending keeping the wrestling program. Does Dr. Frohnmeyer have to answer to anyone, i.e. a board of trustees? Has Dr. Frohnmeyer made any statement regarding the decision to drop the program?

70. Bob Storlie Says:

    March 25th, 2008 at 5:33 pm

    Dave Frohnmayer’s only–email reply to me “he respects all those who have wrestled and their families”
    “this is a complex financial problem–go see Pat Kilkenny”–he has not responded to the Senators or the 100’s of letters, emails, or phone calls–a judge would call him a “non-responsive witness”
    I am looking for a better legal term—SOW has hired a top attorney–we plan to file an injuntion in court–we have written to the Board of Regents–I have read no comments from these actions–and hope to get an update from Senator Ben Westlund soon–I have met with several AD assistants–retired State Legal Counsel—and testified at the Capitol–in front of the Ways & Means committee–my understanding —he has not made any kind of important decisions or involment for the last five years—Senator Ben says –they are going to hold him accountable for this decision—but I don’t have details at this time on his statement—the Governor is next–we are putting together—comprehensive Strategic/Business plan—includes letters of intent,spreadsheets of donors,pledges and Visa
    contributions, testimentory gifts and more—our organization and volunteers list is impressive and growing–along with over 7000 petition signors—and much more—believe me–we will keep fighting

71. truth seeker Says:

    March 25th, 2008 at 6:37 pm

    The AD grossly underexagerated the drive, commitment and fight of this group. They slant the facts as they see fit. We had thousands of people that wrote letters and expressed supoort BEFORE the final decision came down. Kileknny’s staement was something to the effect of “I received hundreds if not thousands of letters and emails, not one of them contained any money.” Now we were never told that we needed money. Meanwhile the exageration about all the baseball money coming in to support the program was put out there. Little were people made aware that the bulk of the money was from APt K himself and a few of his buddies such as Padres GM Kevin Towers. Hmmm…..coincenence Pads farm team is the Emeralds who are going to likely benefit huge from the UO new baseball stadium. Anyway, that is fine, we support baseball being atthe UO, but not at the expense of wrestling. And we can have both. In July it was all about money, now the bullseye has changed? Why? Kilkenny’s own words reflect the change. “It doesn’t matter if we have 20 million dollars tomorrow, we aren’t going to wrestle”. Why not? Now we don’t have a place to have competitions they say. Mac Court is still standing isn’t it?