By Jay Jones, June 10, 2008
This morning, I am starting my weekly (Fridays) co-hosting duties on The Writer’s Block with George Schroeder at 9:00am on 1320-AM in the Eugene-Springfield area. You can also hear a rebroadcast on 590-AM at 6:00pm.
As far as topics are concerned, I think we’ll talk a little NBA Draft, and its impact on former Oregon players.
If you would like to call the show, here’s the number: 541-284-8571.
Richard Says:
June 28th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
How about report on UO stealing over $200,000 from the Dale Thomas Foundation.
Jay Says:
June 29th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
Richard -
I’m not a reporter. But you’re more than welcome to call the show and ask George about that anytime.
Jay
DSN
David C. Nelson Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 2:57 am
Richard refers to the University of Oregon’s portion of the funds divided among the three large state schools–UO, OSU and PSU– after the disillusion of the Oregon Cultural Exchange Wrestling program in the early 1990s. Dale Thomas stipulated, as trustee of the funds, that interest from the funds bequeathed would be used in perpetuity by each school for wrestling scholarships–but would revert to the foundation if wrestling were ever dropped as an intercollegiate sport.
Apparently, Oregon has taken the position that the principal, an amount in excess of $200,000, will be used to pay down its remaining scholarship obligations to the wrestlers who choose to finish out their undergraduate careers at the UO.
I suspect, if you’ll read the paperwork that accompanies Equity in Athletics’ lawsuit against the UO, that’s why the athletic department has merely “suspended” rather than canceled wrestling. It wants to suck the funds dry.
In other words, UO is saying, we’re keeping the money contrary to the stipulations of the grant. If you don’t like it, sue us. That’s a tall order for Nadine Ritchie, Thomas’ 26-year companion, whom I interviewed earlier this year. Nadine is getting up in her years, but she and other wrestling advocates are determined to protect the integrity of those funds–raised by donations spanning several decades from the wrestling faithful within the State of Oregon.
As it operated while wrestling was active at UO, only a portion of the Thomas scholarship’s annual interest went to UO wrestlers. The rest remained with the University in order to grow the fund in anticipation of rising tuition costs. The trust had increased from approximately $88,000 at its inception to its present value today.
According to UO’s June 25 answer to EIA’s lawsuit, wrestling’s published budget was $613,000, a projected figure if all 9.9 scholarships were granted to cover out-of-state tuition. In reality, the coaches spent just over half a million–primarily because it granted approximately 70% of the grant-in-aid money to in-state students. The Dale Thomas Memorial Scholarship further reduced UO’s expenses for wrestling by approximately 1.3 scholarships per year.
Wrestling was a bargain for the UO, one it couldn’t wait to liquidate.
So, Jay, when you asked in reaction to the lawsuit a few weeks ago: “What does this say about the integrity of Oregon’s wrestlers?” it seems to me that you could have asked a similar question about the morality of the University of Oregon. But I’ll bet you won’t.
Speculating on who should really be the “face of the program,” while putting down Duck athletes for exercising their legal rights to litigation, seems to be the preferred course of action at the Ducks Sports News.
Jay Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 4:38 am
David -
The preferred course of action of Duck Sports News is, and has been, to give you, and other wrestling supporters, a platform, forum, and access to thousands of Duck fans to discuss the news and issues surrounding Oregon wrestling.
However, if it’s your estimation that the preferred course of action of Duck Sports News has been disagreeable to you, I would completely understand it if you did not ask us to take any further action on your behalf along our wayward path (such as posting links) in the future.
Jay
DSN
David C. Nelson Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 7:23 am
This is your sandbox, Jay, and the “preferred course of action” with regard to who plays here is entirely your prerogative. I’m not talking about coverage or access, for which you have indeed been generous.
Instead, I refer to your editorial comments–questioning the integrity of University of Oregon athletes for exercising their legal right to sue–when you choose to remain silent about the University’s integrity in the situation Richard and I have presented to you.
Did I make you angry, Jay? I hope so. You sure as hell did the same to me when you suggested our hard-working athletes had some kind of character flaw for going to court to save their sport. These are kids who represented the university well. They sued, their right as citizens, as a last resort.
I’m waiting for you to express the same degree of moral indignation about the University’s violating the terms of the Dale Thomas scholarship by not returning the principal now that it has dropped wrestling.
Dave
SOW
Roseanna Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 9:48 am
This is my observation and I have no idea if anyone else shares it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some do.
I support the Wrestling community in it’s attempts to keep their sport at UO. I think they’ve brought up valid points for discussion. It’s possible that only wrestlers with the tenacious mentality they have could be the ones to band together against the current AD regime, making cogent points along the way.
However, I think it’s unwise to round on the ones who’ve tried to give them opportunity to continue speaking while we wait for the court date. I’m sure that’s not the intention. At times, you guys are way too testy for your own good. People get turned off and dismiss your points. And I understand the ‘use’ of space offered here or there to change subjects and reframe towards wrestling, but you have no way to gauge that effectiveness unless people like me respond. Which I am. Balance is key.
Dave Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Roseanna,
I understand your point. What many outsiders do not understand, is many people in this fight have tried to take the high road to get wrestling reinstated. However, after being lied to many times, it has come to the court case. The other thing that frustrates the wrestling side is the fact that people still think that Kilkenny is the right guy for the job. He has some serious character flaws that most outside of the wrestling community either refuse to see or are just not smart enough to see through his smoke screen. I have posed this question to many people who have issues with the wrestling community. What would you do if something you felt passionately about was taken from you? I have gotten few responses when I have posed this question. You have a response Roseanna and Jay?
David C. Nelson Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Rosanna,
I appreciate the space that Jay and the DSN have given to us. As I hope I made clear, however, I’m still pretty upset about his knee- jerk editorial response to the wrestlers who filed suit. As you recall, he questioned their character. Now that UO is reneging on a promise to the Thomas Foundation, he is silent.
I suppose that in the DSN world, there are much more restrictive standards of character for individual Oregon athletes than for the UO administration.
As for other people being turned off by our arguments, I fell they were never turned on. For months all we heard in response to our pleas was the canned: “Hey, it was either baseball or wrestling and I prefer baseball. Don’t you understand that it was a Title IX thing?”
Then Neal Zoumbouklos finally spoke the truth. Just a few days ago, on June 25, Oregon Department of Justice lawyers filed their response to our lawsuit. There were no surprises. Oregon will not argue Title IX as a justification for dropping wrestling. That’s because there is not a gender-equity case for dropping the sport. Instead, Oregon will defend its institutional prerogative to add and drop sports at will.
Quite frankly, Rosanna, I don’t think we’ve turned off a soul who was on our side in the first place. The only people we’ve angered are those who wanted to see us roll over and die in the first place.
They’re tired of hearing from us. Well, to that I say: “Tough!”
Zachary Vishanoff Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
The con artists currently in control of th UOAD can only be reigned in with fact witnesses and law . Hype, prevailing wind media and marketing have merged into a political stew which leaves media so confused, stonewalled and spun out they end up in friendly fire mode attacking our boys-like the Save Oregon Wrestling heroes. I have not seen a fair article yet about Phil Knights apparent mission/conspiracy to drive the UO wrestling program off the face of the Earth. It is really that simple. A problem people do not understand is one that will not be solved. It has been almost 10 days shouldn’t we be expecting a new” how Kilkenny/Salazar saved Eugene” article from the RG? On the subject of NIKE-governance how did the Autzen field of schemes greenway permit decision go anyone?
Roseanna Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Well quite frankly, David C. Nelson, I think you are incorrect, although I’m not angered by your responses. I only have a few minutes here, so I will gladly get back later with more detailed thoughts to your post along with Dave’s and Zachary’s.
But I will quickly say this: you are bordering on a victimization platform that is going to derail any progress you’ve made in educating the world out here about the real threat within the UO/AD ranks. I think you’re not seeing the whole bigger picture with IMAX surround, which is much bigger than wrestling and far more important…and wrestling IS quite important. And while I understand WHY it’s tempting to take this route, I really think you should rethink that strategy in ‘the court of public opinion’.
Later..
Jay Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
David -
I am far from angry.
Actually, I am more understanding now…of the University of Oregon, not wrestling supporters.
Considering our generosity, your intentional provocation is a bit perplexing. If your approach is indicative of wrestling supporters’ negotiating position, I now understand why the University of Oregon had no interest in working with the supporters of wrestling to resolve this issue. Furthermore, if this is what it was like to work with wrestlers, I can even understand the University’s eagerness to cut the wrestling program to begin with.
David, I think you’re right. I don’t think you’ve turned off a single person who has supported wrestling from the very beginning. But as an outside observer of wrestling’s situation, open to persuasion, I think it’s safe to say that I have been turned off.
As far as the Dale Thomas Foundation is concerned, I simply do not have enough information to form an opinion.
And at this point, I don’t think I’ll be flipping that moral indignation switch any time soon to find out more.
Still not angry. But I definitely do understand now.
Jay
DSN
Richard Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
The thing I find frustrating is how media outlets run a smoke screen for Kilkenny/Knight/UO Admin on this one. How many times does one need to bring up the facts before people believe otherwise? If someone continues to prove the same thing about a person, time and time again, eventually common sense has to kick in.
So, when stories like the lawsuit and the stolen money are broke, the powers that be try real hard to keep this from the public. How many people even knew about the stoelen money until I mentioned it? Not many, but I’ve been emailing the RG and Oregonian about it for weeks and not one person has the balls to stand up for what right. Talk about character flaws. Reporters are not supposed to be subjective in what they write about. They are simply supposed to write about the news as it comes to them. You can’t just pick through it only posting the good things. I think DSN has done a way better job than the RG has at letting both sides being revealed.
Okay, done with my rant. One last question, Jay. If I had stolen over $200,000 from you, you knew it I stole it and I refuse to give it back and planned on just using up the money, would I still be considered a good man in your book? And would you just sit back and take it or would you want the entire public to know about it?
Richard Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Enough info? We just laid down all the info there is for you about the stolen money.
So, by siding with UO admin on this one, you’re saying you’d rather deal with proven lying, theives than with people standing up for what they believe in and fighting like hell to get it back? Hmmm…..I’m confused.
Richard Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Here is what should be happening to Kilkenny and UO admin on this theft or something similar. No less than jail time on this one.
From the Oregonian
Brent Crosson, once a rising star in the accounting division of the Oregon Department of Education, will spent two years in federal prison then face three years of additional monitoring for stealing nearly $1 million in federal education grants.
U.S. District Judge Garr King gave Crosson that relatively lenient sentence Monday, turning aside recommendations that the former state accountant serve additional time due to his “abuse of trust” placed in him to handle money on behalf of Oregon schoolchildren.
Prosecutors agreed to recommend the two-year sentence because Crosson repaid $750,000 of the $925,000 he stole and agreed to sign over proceeds from the sale of his Salem home and his car. He will have to repay the rest of the money after he leaves prison, King said.
Crosson stole federal funds using an elaborate scheme, first coding the money as a payment owed, rather than as cash on hand. He then doctored routine purchasing forms to direct clerks on his staff to cut checks to CGA Wholesale, a business he owned.
He stole money that way for more than a year before he was caught. Anonymous tipsters alerted state officials that he had diverted public property for private use.
Crosson, a 36-year-old father, was ordered to report to the federal prison in Sheridan in August.
Jay Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Richard -
Now that wrestlers have taken to the University of Oregon to court, I don’t think The Register-Guard or The Oregonian will be doing any reporting. I think they will wait for the results of the court case before they reporting anything further.
As far as traditional media’s reporting up until this point is concerned, I think they’ve reported the obvious stories, but have tried to keep an arm’s length away from the situation. I know wrestling supporters would probably like more opinion and investigative reporting on the matter, but I don’t see that happening.
Generally, I think The Oregonian and The Register-Guard have viewed this struggle as an internal matter and have found it difficult to report on it, as such. In other words, I don’t think either wanted to get in the middle of it.
Richard, I understand the question about the $200,000. But, honestly, I don’t know all of the details. I know the details as you, and David, have presented them. However, I’m sure there are pages and pages of legalese tying that money up. And in that case, there are probably two (legal) sides to the story.
Jay
DSN
Richard Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Actually there isn’t much paperwork involved. The paperwork(by laws) clearly states the money is to be returned to the foundation when the program was discontinued. UO admin said they were using it for something else and have refused to give it back. This is from the top of the athletic dept. When told otherwise, UO admin said they “lost the paperwork.”
Well, OSU and PSU still have the by laws.
The only thing tying up the money are the people who are refusing to give it back. So, basically they have two options. They can keep the money, re-instate the program and everything is fine. Or keep the money, still drop the program and risk jail time.
There isn’t much to this other than one side wanting justice and another wanting to continue to be untruthful, criminals.
Jay Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Richard -
I like you. But I don’t think you’re completely objective when it comes to the University of Oregon.
While I appreciate the information you have provided, I’m sure there is an equally compelling story coming for the University of Oregon. And my recognition of that fact does not mean that I am siding with the folks in Johnson Hall and at the Casanova Center.
Jay
DSN
Roseanna Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
A combined response to your earlier comments.
I think that Zachary has the clearest picture so far of some things that are happening, or have the potential to happen, at UO and in Eugene than anyone I’ve encountered online yet. However you’ll find, if you do a little searching around, that he has been vilified over the years by people claiming he’s ‘just an activist’…or just weird.
I’ll ask you representatives of the Wrestling community: would you have seen your way clear to his points (that he has been making repeatedly for YEARS now) to find yourself in public agreement with his post above? Do you even really know the bigger potential picture he’s referring to? With all due respect and no finger pointing, I’d say you do not…or did not. I know this is the case for a vast majority.
Wrestling might make it back to UO or it might not. I hope it does. If it does not, it will be ‘just’ another in a long line of events, big and small, that have gone on to achieve an end. This is something I think you need to consider beyond SOW. If SOW goes down, it might be the clarion call to inspire some real change. Zachary is exactly correct when he says: “A problem that people do not understand is one that will not be solved.” And the biggest problem so far is that people DO NOT even recognize a problem….even now with SOW.
Why is this? Why the knee-jerk reaction in general you refer to, David C. Nelson? Because we are enculturated to trust those in charge. To not ask questions. To not consider that what hurts you and yours hurts me and mine as well. It’s about glitz, iconic image and competition thrust into lifestyle and gone far beyond the idea that ‘sports is entertainment’. It’s about the undermining of various segments of society to provide pro sports figures (and now college ones as well) as ‘heroes extraordinaire’. Gone are the days that people seriously consider character over shoes as the key determiner of hero status. It’s okay to cheat if you don’t get caught. It’s all…repeat ALL about ‘mine’.
It’s also due to the the role that sports marketing propaganda has played in undermining appreciation for simple sporting accomplishment and sportsmanship in general vs. showmanship and bling.Wrestling is targeted merely because it’s not cool. It’s image doesn’t evoke the yellow brick road to elite sports treatment. It’s just not ad-worthy enough. UO is heading down the elite path and if you don’t believe it, just try floating that boat in the court of public opinion and watch your web site hate hits take a dramatic turn upwards.
What I hear from you all, and rightly so, is frustration. But please don’t let it overtake you. I don’t think you totally realize your front line positions. You are trying to make yourself heard against the roar of a mega machine that started to approach high pitch about three years ago when the Trials were awarded to Eugene. Since then we’ve seen increasing upheaval at UO that you’re all aware of and won’t take time to write out.
Where to begin to untangle and explain the whats and whys that are playing on a background with increasing shades of gray? The tendrils started attaching long before any knew what the outcome would be for not defying it. You have to do some background research and increase your vision more to understand why it’s difficult for people to run easily to your cause. One is basic education…people just do not know or understand the particulars or implications, period. They read ‘indoor track facility?’ and say ‘huh..I dunno’. Many are sold out and just don’t care. That’s where you guys come in whether your case wins or not. Because YOU are the educators to reveal to the general public and to those who can publish it further. You want journalists to do this…but they mostly don’t get it anymore than the general public. And they have bosses and directives and are more than busy already. The other more relevant factor: FEAR. Don’t discount it.
A true educator will never succumb to giving up if he/she is inspired to achieve their goal. They have to find a way to build the next bridge to understanding which requires a degree of harmony and the ability to negotiate ground for understanding. The SOW group has made an intelligent, educated start. Don’t assume that because people appear to be moving slowly to support you, that this represents ‘non support’. Assume that they don’t yet understand and need more illumination, bringing it home to their doorstep for them like the milkman. Make them your best friend…someone they can ask questions of but not feel like they need to defend themselves against if they want to debate. Make them feel comfortable enough to admit they might be changing their minds, though to you it appears to be skepticism. Keep your passion within bounds and don’t give up…neither on Wrestling, but more so–on the future of the UO.
Richard Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
I can respect that then, even though there really isn’t much more to it that what Mr. Nelson laid out there in detail.
David C. Nelson Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
So you don’t understand my provocation, Jay? Quite frankly, I had a hard time understanding yours on that morning when, in reaction of the filing of the lawsuit, you questioned the character of the wrestling team.
I wouldn’t have taken the slightest bit of umbrage if you has questioned my personal morality, that of the coaches, or of the supporters of Save Oregon Wrestling. But when you questioned the character of those kids who donned the emerald green and lemon yellow (check out your own words), you crossed a line.
These are kids who study, train, control their weight, compete, and who are seeing their sport cut out form under them. Some seventy percent of them are homegrown sons of our state. Like the subjects of the NCAA commercial, they’re all going pro in something other than sports.
Without having read the pleadings, or even listened to that afternoon’s press conference, you posted verbiage akin to: What does this tell us about the character of Oregon’s wrestlers?
A bit hasty on your part, Jay? But maybe you live in a different world, I thought. In your universe, perhaps anybody who files a lawsuit to challenge duly constituted authority has a character flaw. So, after an initial protest, we concentrated on giving you the information you might need to change your mind. Maybe after you read George Schaffer’s column about Jeremy McLaughlin, I thought, you’d soften your position.
Now the story breaks that it’s the UO that is going back on a promise, the contingency it signed with regard to the scholarship money it accepted under the stipulaton that it would refund it if wrestling was discontinued. Now the shoe lies on the other foot. The UO’s integrity is being questioned.
I wouldn’t blame you for reserving judgment–even though you didn’t hesitate to condemn the wrestlers the morning of the filing. I wouldn’t have blamed you for writing: “Well, given this new turn of events which hasn’t yet been verified, there’s a significant story here–if it is true.”
Instead, you’re sure the UO has an “equally compelling story.”
So, Jay, why do you give Oregon’s administrators the benefit of the doubt when you don’t afford Oregon’s athletes the same?
That’s what I want to know.
Hank Hosfield Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Regarding the Cultural Exchange trust money (Dale Thomas Memorial Scholarship), I think the stipulations on the usage of that gift are rather clear cut, that the UO must return the all of money to be redivided among all of the remaining D-1 wrestling programs in Oregon, if wrestling were dropped. I also believe that Kilkenny was directly informed of this by Ron Finley and others when Pat first announced his intention to cut wrestling. Subsequent inquiries into the disposition of that money have so far gone unanswered. It is likely that Kilkenny didn’t pay attention to this matter the first time he was advised of it, and/or possibly didn’t believe the word of the wrestling people who gave him the news. It’s probably also likely that the UO is acting intentionally ignorant about this issue. At the very least, they are taking their sweet time to assess their position. Given the current backlog of legal work on Melinda Grier’s desk, they probably haven’t even considered the issue yet. If I were in the UO’s position, I wouldn’t just fork over a quarter million dollars because some outsiders said I have to. At the same time, I wouldn’t try to stonewall it, because that just causes more trouble. But I’m not personally ready to call Kilkenny or anyone else at the UO a thief over this matter, because my assumption is that they don’t yet have an official understanding of their lack of entitlement to that money. I’m giving them the great benefit of the doubt here, but also maintaining that if they continue to ignore or stall this matter, they will be acting unethically. I hope that is not what they are doing now. If it is, I hope they get clobbered for it. Although I doubt that any DA will view this as a crime–not at this time. Even if they hold it for years, without a court order to return the money, they may be able to argue that they reasonably thought the money was theirs. At any rate, this doesn’t seem like embezzlement to me. More like incompetence, hubris and greed–nothing really new there.
I’m glad that folks in the wrestling community are taking the UO to task for this, because if they hadn’t, it unlikely that this money would ever be properly redistributed. Considering all of the loose ends yet to be tied up surrounding wrestling, I’m not at all surprised that this is totally unresolved.
I hope and suggest that our lawyers procure a copy of the grant and deliver it to the UO and to the media. Meanwhile, I hope that everyone reading here will continue to root for the UO to act both legally and ethically.
David C. Nelson Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Roseanna,
You are absolutely correct when you question whether the wrestling community would have appreciated the points Zachary has been making as a community activist. No, we wouldn’t have. We’re the consummate company men. We’d have been Kilkenny’s and Frohnmayer’s frontline shock troops. We’d have probably resented any criticism of the dear old Ducks.
When Mr. Moos approached wrestling coaches a couple of years ago and said the department needed the Casanova Center’s ultramodern wrestling room for a higher cause — an athletic treatment center that would allow the football team to mesmerize the 17-year-old mind and consequently out-recruit rival schools — we said, “Go ahead.”
We found another wrestling room, one in Esslinger Hall, and made it quite satisfactory.
That’s the way it’s been for decades of UO wrestling. Since our inception in 1953, whenever the athletic department entered one of its periods of economic crisis, we said: “We’ll accept budget cuts. Just don’t kill us.”
It happened during my undergraduate years in1975 when UO VP for Administration Ray Hawk brought in a prominent businessman, Pete Wingert, to wield the knife in a financially troubled department — and we’d have glad to cooperate with cuts from the latest incarnation of the amateur athletic director – provided our throat wasn’t being cut.
In fact, in January when I met with coaches Finley and Kearney, they were putting together a bare-bones budget — hoping to make the case with a 1/3 budget cut if they’d just let us live. I proposed at that meeting, if Title IX were the real cause of the cut, that we stop giving scholarships to men. We’d award women’s wrestling scholarships until there was a grant-in-aid gender parity. After all, there was a women’s wreslting team up the road at Pacific University—about as much competition as competitive cheer would have. I was surprised when Chuck Kearney seemed to have no objection.
So, once again, Rosanna–you’re exactly right. We’ve had neither the sophistication nor the desire to understand the points that Zachary has been making. We’ve been dragged, screaming, into the reality of the situation.
If Mr. Kilkenny had cut what little fat we had, without decapitating us, we’d have taken it as a challenge and continued in hopes of a restored budget in the future.
Jay may disagree, based on his experience with us lately. But we’re a different animal now. Too bad you didn’t know us when we were the consummate company men, Jay. You really never knew us then, and I suspect you don’t know us now.
Dave Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Jay
How can the wrestling community be completely objective when it come to U of O administration when they refuse to meet with people to try to find a way to keep the program and let them have their baseball and soccer. A plan can be devised to make everyone happy if they would just sit down and talk to the SOW people. The other reason it is hard to be objective, SOW has been constantly lied to so many times by the administration.
Roseanna Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Yes…I daresay you are correct, David C. Nelson, when you say “If Mr. Kilkenny had cut what little fat we had, without decapitating us, we’d have taken it as a challenge and continued in hopes of a restored budget in the future.”
This not only shows us the lack of experience and wisdom on the part of AD Kilkenny, but also the agenda by those who gave him the job. He needs to go. The UO needs a qualified AD…and not an ex-football coach, but an experienced, knowledgeable administrator without corporate ties.
Dave Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Could not agree with you more Roseanna, but it will never happen as long as Phil Knight is the face of the football program.
Richard Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
I think there is a lot of people that are in agreement that Kilkenny is probably the worse thing to ever happen to UO.
Roseanna Says:
June 30th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
It WILL happen if enough UO donors and fans get educated, band together and get real about the future of UO. The mantra ‘it’s time for change’ fits all sorts of bills these days. Let this be another!
David C. Nelson Says:
July 1st, 2008 at 8:13 am
I wish I were as optimistic, Roseanna.
Fans, donors, and alumni usually slumber when the university has to step in an clean up an athletic department fiscal mess, such as I predict will be the case with several ongoing projects, particularly the baseball sinkhole. How many million are we over those July 13 press conference figures?
The masses seem to be conscious of wins and losses, and once in a while they take notice of a major scandal involving NCAA compliance. Otherwise, their attention span seems limited to a few days at a time. The Ramos affair has pretty much run its course, although the problems that caused it still fester with no correction in sight.
College athletics is a diversion for most, and the few fanatically devoted seem, as Roseanna suggested, “enculturated to trust those in charge.”
If Mr. Kilkenny had treated wrestling no worse than did Mr. Moos, which isn’t saying much, we wrestling boosters would be his biggest fans and most loyal defenders.
Zachary Vishanoff Says:
July 1st, 2008 at 9:52 am
Essentially a union of non market-oriented sports should be formed at UO. This is not the end-other sports will be thrown overboard to augment select Nike programs. The “sexy” sports will be enhanced and other less gimmick based programs will be fattened up and thrown in the oven when fully grown. The sick and twisted thing here is coverage. Last week the proposed site of the UO Alum center moved about a half block-no coverage. On 3-10 the rg quietly says PK wants a indoor track-no site no details no follow up. Finally the media says phil will give 50 mill more. What programs will be iced to get that hand off? Will the indoor track construction have to begin to get the money? Just bond it? What next?The idiotmedias incompetence will dig graves for all the less visible sports if we do not educate them as to what the real questions to be asking are.”Re use a shoe” tactics apply to sport programs too-grind em up and let others play on top of them. Its about “sustainability”. Form a coalition of endangered sports and pull back on the Nike-Governance of UO tug of war rope soon. This is extremely complicated and the budding journalist interns are at the wheel as we veer towards Just do it falls. Mutiny-just do it. If the kids can’t report lecture them, blog them, and nail them down. When does the steering committee for the union of UO sports meet?
Jay Says:
July 1st, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Zach -
The “non market-oriented sports” you refer to are commonly known as the Olympic sports, or non-revenue sports. Basically, everything except football and men’s basketball.
Women’s sports at the UO are safe. I don’t think you’re going to see them go anywhere. Most of that credit will go to the perceived threat of Title IX claims. The rest of it rests on the shoulders of the community.
Zach, let’s talk about coverage. The fact (and I don’t know if it is a fact) that the proposed site for UO Alumni Center moved a half of block probably didn’t merit reporting. What’s to report? OK. The “proposed” site moved. Big deal. Actually, to you, I’m sure that is a big deal. But what does that mean? And can it be backed up? There’s a certain threshold for what’s considered news. Those questions I asked are a starting point.
Here’s something else to consider about coverage. The RG simply doesn’t have the enough people to cover the basics, let alone investigative reporters following rabbit trails. And they’re cutting staff. The Oregonian does. But they are two hours north. And if they don’t have someone on that beat, a story is really going to have warrant their attention.
As far as the “idiots” in media are concerned, don’t expect any favors, coverage, or attention from them if that is how you feel. On the one hand, you clearly recognize the need for coverage. On the other hand, you refer to the ones that will provide that coverage as idiots and incompetent. Put yourself in their soon-to-be-ground-up shoes. Would you cover you? Probably not.
And this has been my point concerning some of David’s comments. I don’t want to go all Jack Nicholson in a “Few Good Men” here, but don’t insult the very people that can help your cause.
Jay
DSN
David C. Nelson Says:
July 1st, 2008 at 1:04 pm
“And this has been my point concerning some of David’s comments. I don’t want to go all Jack Nicholson in a “Few Good Men” here, but don’t insult the very people that can help your cause.”
Well, Jay, you may have a point. But please don’t insult our varsity wrestlers because they joined in a lawsuit against the university. The demonstrated no character flaw by resorting to the legal system in their fight against the university system.
If you’ll go back and read anything that could be considered an “insult” of you, it probably pertains to your remarks on the morning the lawsuit was filed.
Jay Says:
July 1st, 2008 at 2:17 pm
David -
Here’s what I wrote on that occasion. Please find the insult.
But before you do that, I would implore you not to insult those very same varsity wrestlers.
What do I mean?
Both sides are using these student-athletes as pawns in this very personal, and public, pissing match.
This issue isn’t about these kids. This is a grudge match between the supporters of wrestling, who don’t like certain individuals within, and without, the Athletic Department, and individuals at the Cas Center, who don’t care for the wrestling folks.
So, don’t tell me this is about the varsity wrestlers. Now, that’s insulting.
Here’s what I wrote.
Jay
DSN
Top 10 Grappling Questions & Answers
1. What does the case say about the Oregon wrestling team?
“Oregon wrestling is desperate. And in their desperation, they have resorted to litigation. This is their last, best (and I believe, worst) hope to save Oregon wrestling. But what does this say about the character of Oregon wrestling? On this blog (and elsewhere on the nets), wrestling supporters have championed wrestling as a “character” sport. But is being litigious a “character” thing to do?
If the Oregon wrestling team believes they’ve been grievously and unjustly wronged (and I believe they have been treated unfairly), then legal action might be their only recourse. Do I have to run down a list of recent dramatic legal movies featuring a triumphant underdog? Erin Brockovich. The Rainmaker. Legally Blonde. (This brings up a good point, why isn’t the Oregon wrestling team viewed as a sympathetic underdog? Shoot. Even my answers beget more questions.) Who doesn’t root for the single mom or young lawyer against the big, bad, evil corporation? I know I do.
But to play Devil’s Advocate, this move could also be seen as a “win at all costs” move, not exactly what wrestlers are supposedly known for. While they don’t know the word “quit”, the Oregon wrestling team might get to know the word “backlash” pretty well. For most Duck fans, I believe this move will be viewed upon as a kamikaze like maneuver: the Oregon wrestling team knows they’re going down and they are going to take down as many at the University as they can.”
9. What will be the public perception of the Oregon wrestling team now?
Not good, I’m afraid. The reality is that most Duck fans don’t care about wrestling. Duck fans mostly care about football and men’s basketball. Now, that doesn’t negate wrestling as a sport. It just means that in the court of public opinion, a majority of Duck fans are indifferent, like they are about many other sports on campus. And I think most wrestling supporters would acknowledge that. However, what that also means is that when the Oregon Wrestling team resorts to a lawsuit, it does not endear them in the hearts of Duck fans. And in this case, taking legal action will quickly move wrestling from a sport of indifference to derision, in the minds of Duck fans.
Richard Says:
July 1st, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Jay,
You are way off base about us not caring about the kids. This is all about the kids and future kids that may want to attend UO to wrestle. kids like my son who dreamed of wrestling for them after he watched his uncle attend school there. But, at any early meeting, was told by Kilkenny “you can go somewhere else.”
And don’t think my son wasn’t the only one. There are hundreds of kids in the state of OR, who wanted that opportunity to wrestle D1 at UO and watched as a man in one simple, undeducated swoop, took it away from them.
We all knew its wrong and as close knit as our wrestling community has always been, we jumped in to help defend our fellow wrestlers.
Unless you’ve been a part of wrestling, you just never know. You hurt one of us, you hurt all of us. You push one of us, you push all of us. And for damn certain, we’ll all push back.
David C. Nelson Says:
July 1st, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Okay, Jay, start with No. 1: “What does this say about the Oregon wrestlers? … What does it say about the character of Oregon wrestling.”
Enough, Jay? You’re questioning the character of 18- to 22-year old athletes who studied, practiced, lifted weights, cut their body fat to almost nothing, went to bed hungry, and took calculus tests thirsty so as to be able to make weight. I have no idea if you ever participated in intercollegiate athletics, Jay, but obviously you’re oblivious to the sacrifice wrestlers make.
[Jay: David, I asked a question. I didn't say they were of low-character. But just because there is a right to litigate doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do. And is that sacrifice, or self-abuse?]
That’s okay, but when you question their character for taking their case to court — which is the orderly way of solving disputes that has transpired in western society since the days of the Magna Carta — you’re cutting them down for adhering to the system. They’re not rebels, Jay. They’re conformists.
[Jay: David, all I was pointing out is how litigating would be perceived by the public. Again, I might have a right to do something, but that doesn't mean that it is the best thing for me to do.]
Enough, Jay? Maybe not.
Jay: “If the Oregon wrestling team believes they’ve been grievously and unjustly wronged (and I believe they have been treated unfairly), then legal action might be their only recourse. Do I have to run down a list of recent dramatic legal movies featuring a triumphant underdog? Erin Brockovich. The Rainmaker. Legally Blonde . . .”
So, having not read one sentence of the pleadings, you’re making fun of them. Forget the merits of their case; paint them as pandering to the court and to the court of public opinion.
[Jay: David, I was not making fun of them. The "Legally Blonde" reference was just for fun, but not making fun of these wrestlers. My point was that these wrestlers are underdogs, much like the characters in these movies. But I went on to point out that it doesn't seem like the public is embracing them as underdogs.]
Jay, if you exhibited half as much concern for the athletes at the University of Oregon that you seem to have for its administrators, I’d say you’re at least trying to be fair. I don’t see it. Your hard-wired prejudice toward Oregon’s athletic administrators is quite evident throughout your comments in this blog.
[Jay: David, you might want to take a look at my writing regarding the Kevin Love/Mac Court incident. I didn't exactly show much Love for Mr. Kilkenny is that one. But even if you don't think wrestling is getting a fair-shake here, at least it's getting a shake. And that's more than wrestling is getting in other media outlets.]
Enough Jay? Maybe not.
Jay: “While they don’t know the word “quit”, the Oregon wrestling team might get to know the word “backlash” pretty well.”
Threatening them, Jay? Go against the university system by suing within the legal system and everybody will hate you, right?
[Jay: David, that's not a threat. That's simply stating that Oregon sports fans don't like to see "their" school sued. And that's not a threat. They're fans. That's what they do.]
Wrong. It’s been the experience of most wrestling supporters since the lawsuit was filed that Ducks are giving them the benefit of the doubt. They’ve even detected a bit of grudging admiration from people who never previously indicated that wrestling exited.
[Jay: David, I admire the effort. I think it's the wrong effort. But I admire it. However, a majority of Duck fans don't care.]
You see, Jay, not all Oregonians are right-wing haters of the tort system. Many respect the courts as an orderly way to settle differences that can’t be adjudicated at a lower level of resolution.
[Jay: David, just because I don't think suing was the proper course of action, I'm a right-wing advocate for tort reform? That's a stretch.]
Our experience has been quite positive since we filed suit. Sorry if you’re disappointed. But we know what you were wishing for.
[Jay: David, I've been wishing for a puppy. But in this case, I kind of wished that the UO and wrestling were able to work out their differences. But you knew that.]
Does that clarify my objection to your attitude, Jay? You could just admit your bias, which is quite evident from the snippets you provided.
[Jay: David, I could admit my bias. But where would the fun in that be?]
But don’t tell us:
Jay: “So, don’t tell me this is about the varsity wrestlers. Now, that’s insulting.”
Now you’re just being dishonest. It has everything to do with the varsity wrestlers, the only intercollegiate team at the UO that depends on native Oregonians to staff the preponderance of it roster.
[Jay: David, I was actually being very honest there. There are many who are a part of this argument that have a grudge against Pat Kilkenny, Renee Baumgartner, Phil Knight, Dave Frohnmayer…I could go on. Wrestling just happens to focal point.]
It has everything to do with the future Oregon wrestlers who, if we win, will go back to their Oregon towns and become teachers, coaches, doctors, businessmen, et al.
[Jay: David, if you win, the wrestlers will able to do what they want when there done. Unfortunately, athletic departments across the country will not be able to do what they want, or need, to do in order to determine their own future.]
It has very little to do, materially, with Ron Finley, who could have taken the easy road in his retirement. When Oregon cut gymnastics in 1981, Bill Ballester took another job with the university. The other day, Neal Zoumbouklos asked Ron not to come by the Casanova center to pick up his mail.
[Jay: David, it's personal. I don't know what precipitated all of the bad feelings on both sides, but something, or multiple somethings, happened. And I'd love to hear all of the stories someday.]
It has very little to do with the coaching staff. The head coach hasn’t been seen nor heard from since the lawsuit was filed. One assistant coach has found employment elsewhere in the athletic department.
It damn sure doesn’t have anything to do with me. I’m an airline pilot based in Texas, and when I came to the NWCA meet in November, it was my first wrestling match since the late 1970s.
It has everything to do with the wrestlers, Jay, and if you maintain otherwise, everybody here will know how disingenuous you’re being.
[Jay: David, I have a hard time being disingenuous. I kind of wear my heart on my shoulder.]
[Jay: Folks, I've got to shut this thread down. I don't think it's doing anyone any good anymore. And I would like to say there will be more opportunities to discuss these issues in the future, but I'm not sure that will be the case. Thanks for the comments.]
Jay Says:
July 1st, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Richard -
I’m not doubting your sincerity. While there are bigger issues here I know you care about, I don’t believe you have another agenda other than concern for wrestlers, and kids on your team.
Unfortunately, I don’t think that’s true for everyone.
Jay
DSN