By Jay Jones, July 8, 2008
This morning, Kenny & Katy talked to former University of Oregon wrestling coach Ron Finley regarding the current litigation on The Morning Sports Page with Kenny & Katy on 95.5 FM “The Game” in Portland.
In the course of their conversation, Mr. Finley acknowledges the University of Oregon’s right to drop a program. However, he asserts the problem is with how the University of Oregon dropped the program.
Here’s the link to the interview.
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UO Wrestler Alumnus Says:
July 10th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
I really think whoever wrote this tid-bit really spun the fact that “Coach Finley acknowleges the University has the right to cut a program”. Didn’t you listen????? You must be a used car salesman, because your agenda was clear and your readers are like a buffalo herd running over the cliff because the lead buffalo was off track.
Why didn’t you report something like: “Ron Finley is frustrated with the UO Athletic Department. Says councel and representatives changing their story from Title IX reasons to money issues”. I think this is more representative to the story.
The truth hurts. Lies are like the buffalo. You follow them, you will end up like them.
Zachary Vishanoff Says:
July 11th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Here is a question is anyone discussing why Nike is ordering the wrestling program cut? Isn’t that the heart of the issue? Are we going to play games and pretend this state school randomly woke up one morning and decided to throw a whole group of its talented student athletes in the waste basket? This is a civil rights vs. university privatization train wreck/game of political chicken . Nike likes UO to take risks ,transform itself into NIKEs image of what it should be in the future ,and break the law/or bend them and amend them to help the brand and its starchitect friends. Fact: starchitects dislike quaint facilities like Civic stadium. Nike wants to see what the rocketship UO can do. Cutting wrestling is the equivalent of taking UO to the salt flats testing ground(with Cashregister guard cheerleaders in tow) to see how legally evasive and nimble the new UO prototype can be. It’s “duel in the sun” scorched earth politics at play. Unilaterally trimming (using UO Foundation/PHIT L.L.C. as the scalpel/laser)UO into a Nike sports marketing “delta force” rapid deployment team is the goal. How edgy and culty can we make UO? Perhaps when the UO arena goes belly up along with its baseball fairy tale we can sue the estate of field of schemer/dreamer Costner for knowingly helping UO become a international joke. Not really. But NIKE should be dragged into court-by about half of eugene.(the “old school” half)Tired of NIKE-governance yet? Testify at the two hearings against the uo arena on 7-21-2008 at 7:30 pm at eugene city hall council chamber. The embattled arena boondoggle and the wrestling cut attempt are the same dangerous political octopus just a different arm. If NIKE would like to asert that it has nothing to do with the wrestling cut please do so with a media statement soon. If we do not hear from you we have to assume it is NIKEs work because the political fingerprints all over the wrestlers match exactly NIKEs past hits. Remember the company called will Will Vinton studios? how about Mark Kasky, the city of beaverton,the coach before salazar , Moos,and on and on.
UO Wrestler Alumnus Says:
July 11th, 2008 at 9:39 am
I listened to this again, and whoever wrote needs to get the massive amounts of earwax out of their ears. Coach Finley DID NOT acknowledge the University of Oregon has a RIGHT to cut a program. He said, “a school can cut a program”, but in the context of this message was that anyone could do what they want - shoot themselves, wreck their car, gamble their life savings away, drink massive amounts of alcohol, do drugs, unsafe and harmful sex, etc.
Please DO NOT distort the facts here! I would think the person who wrote this was more together than this.
UO Wrestler Alumnus Says:
July 11th, 2008 at 9:44 am
Jay Jones: You are the author of such bad journalism! Poor choice of words. You need to get counceling to listen better.
Jay Says:
July 11th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
UO Wrestler Alumnus -
Let’s not talk semantics.
This case is about how the University of Oregon eliminated the wrestling program. “Can cut”. “Right to cut”. Same difference. And that’s what I wrote.
I’m not a journalist. I’ve said that on several occasions here. But I do know what’s interesting and what’s not. And we all know Finley is frustrated. Not exactly ground-breaking news. What we haven’t heard is that Finley believes that the UO can cut a program. And that’s interesting because I don’t believe all of the wrestling supporters agree with that statement.
But since I clearly have a hearing problem, please write a little louder with all CAPS next time. That helps. A lot.
And I want to thank you, too. I don’t know if you know it, but you’re helping me clarify my point of view. As the number of insulting and name-calling comments by wrestling supporters like yourself rises, my borderline support for wrestling’s cause continues to plummet.
Where’s that wrestling character I supposedly impugned so many months ago?
Let me know where I can find it. And write loud.
Thanks,
Jay
DSN
Roseanna Says:
July 11th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
While I empathize with your comments, Jay, I think that there are lots of high school wrestlers, and their parents, whom I would guess have appreciated your borderline support/questions and willingness to continue to let this be discussed.
BTW…where ARE those stalwart wrestling bloggers this week?
UO Wrestler Alumnus Says:
July 11th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Jay,
It only gets this way when our backs are against the wall. We are sick and tired of being the nice guy here. Judge Lynn Ashcroft stated that we should have filed suit long before it all came down to this. Would that have portrayed the “nice guy image”. NO. And look where we are today.
We are also sick and tired of how the media and the UO Athletic Department twists the truth about UO Wrestling. Pat Kilkenney and Renee Baumgartner lied under oath! They did not follow proper protocal because they know they would have encountered resistance from the wrestling community and the IAC. Read the minutes of the March 2008 meeting. Pat Kilkenney once again distorted the truth about the amount of money that was raised. He said it wasn’t real. HOW DOES HE KNOW? He made an assumption. It might be interesting to know about his comments during the last IAC meeting. Sure, there are 6 football players (out of how many?) who received All-PAC 10 Acedemic honors. NOTHING WAS SAID ABOUT the 4 wrestlers (out of how many?) who received All-PAC 10 Acedemic Honors as well! Only 6 football players - If I were Pat, I would think this would be a complete failure and I would work to do something about this. Oh, that’s right, Pat was a college dropout.
NOW THAT IS SOMETHING TO CALL ******** ON. How come nothing was written about this?
Hank Hosfield Says:
July 11th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
The answer to Roseanna’s question is: the wrestling bloggers are sorting things out amongst themselves on their own blog. You may be interested in reading through the 77-and counting posts on the current lawsuit topic found here: http://saveoregonwrestling.com/?p=87#comment-1953
Enjoy.
Jay Says:
July 11th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
UOWA -
I know the wrestling community’s collective backs are against the wall. And I sympathize. For the most part, the wrestlers I know are nice guys. And they have character, if not characters themselves.
But being nice doesn’t have anything to do with wrestling’s current situation. Honestly, I think the supporters of wrestling received some bad legal advice (and got caught off guard - I don’t think many saw Judge Ashcroft’s “too late” take coming). Although, I think having filed any earlier would have been problematic, as well.
Like I said, I sympathize. Let’s move on to the fun stuff where we disagree…
On the IAC…Here’s a version of what I recently wrote to a DSN friend, and wrestling supporter:
“After my experiences of serving on similar committees as a student, I have very little confidence that those committees have the best interests of the institutions they serve at heart. More than anything, they like to have meetings, hear themselves ‘discuss’, do very little, and make things more difficult for others. If you like hearing yourself talk and trying to sound enlightened, these committees are for you.
The problem that the IAC has is that they don’t have any teeth. No enforcement. They are an advisory committee. That’s it.”
On Renee’s comments and testimony…
Yes, I am aware of the discrepancy between her comments on July 13, 2007 and her testimony earlier this week regarding wrestling. (Quick set-up. At the press conference announcing the reinstatement of baseball and the elimination of wrestling, Renee responded to a question that no other teams were considered for elimination other than wrestling. On Monday when asked the same question in court, she testified that men’s tennis was considered at the time.)
But before everyone goes all “message board” using words like “liar” and “perjury”, there are possible explanations for the difference in answers. And they should be considered before the name-calling begins. They are not honest explanations, but understandable. For instance, what if men’s tennis did not know they were on the chopping block? Kind of a bad, if unnecessary, time to find out. I know supporters of wrestling can identify with that predicament.
Overall, I don’t think her answer is going to have a significant impact in court. On the message boards and sites like this, yes. The courts, no.
On Pat Kilkenny…
Yes, he’s a college dropout. So are Bill Gates, Michael Dell, and Steve Jobs.
And TV’s Hercules, Kevin Sorbo.
Jay
DSN
truth seeker Says:
July 12th, 2008 at 7:42 am
If you want to talk semantics, let’s talk about the UO holding the Dale Thomas Scholarship monies, rather than turning it over to Portland State and OSU as called for in by-laws. The UO is now saying that they “suspended” wrestling rather than “dropped” the program so they can keep about a quarter of a million dollars. They are corrup, plane and simple on this one. Regardless of anyone’s feeling s or interest level for wrestling, anyone with half a brain and/or integrity would call BS on this one. Check out the 95th post or so on Saveoregonwrestling.com to read more about it. Unbelievble! Why would this kind of thing be allowed? If they have no interest in keeping the wrestling program, that is unfortunate, but the money should clearly be turned over as called for in the scholarship by-laws. Give it to the schools that want to support these young men.
Jay Says:
July 12th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Truth Seeker -
Yes, I know about the Dale Thomas Scholarship funds.
But let’s try to use that other half-a-brain to understand some possible reasons for the University of Oregon to keep those funds.
(Quick question: is it mandatory for wrestling supporters to include some sort of insult in every comment? Is that in the wrestling “by-laws” now?)
As long as there are former wrestlers (Are you really ever a “former wrestler? Probably not.) on campus with remaining scholarships to fulfill, the UO will appropriate those funds to pay for them (And they’ll make those funds fit the costs. How do you think film studios never make money on $500 million movies?). That’s the justification for “suspending” the program, and not “discontinuing” it.
Once that money became a part of the system, it became theirs to do with as they pleased, within the parameters that it was given. You can quibble about those parameters, and the by-laws all you want (If there was room to wriggle within those by-laws, it will be exploited. And that’s a problem with the by-laws.). But we’re talking about a bureaucracy here. Bean-counters. Pushing anonymous funds from one account to the other. And I could very easily imagine a challenge back by the UO to those who are demanding that money: do you really want to make the remaining former wrestlers pay for education? Do you want to take away that, too? Haven’t they been through enough?
At this point (for that matter, at any point), the UO doesn’t want to spend what’s been tagged as their money on anything that has to do with wrestling. But they will say that they want to support these remaining wrestlers. If they have another means of doing that, they will.
Look, that money is gone (See Otter’s exchange with Flounder regarding his older brother’s car in Animal House.). But it wasn’t stolen. Will it be used in the spirit that it was given? That’s arguable. But I think that its use can be reasonably justified.
And that’s with only half-a-brain. Or is that only 10%?
Jay
DSN
Hank Hosfield Says:
July 12th, 2008 at 9:51 am
I think the critical difference here is that the Dale Thomas scholarship money is specifically devoted to wrestling. Thomas was a smart guy, and he anticipated the possibility that these universities might cut wrestling (as PSU, UO and OSU had all previously tried to do), so the conditions of this gift spelled out precisely that should wrestling be dropped, that money no longer belongs to the school that dropped it. There are no provisions for hanging on to the money longer. There is no wiggle room. Kilkenny has stated definitely in court that the wrestling program has been dismantled. The UO has no more claim to that money.
As far as the spirit of the gift is concerned, it was intended to help kids who wanted to wrestle, not pay tuition for students who can’t wrestle. I don’t know how much the UO is still on the hook for to pay for scholarships of disenfranchised Oregon wrestlers, but it’s probably quite a bit more than the $10K or so annually generated by the $218K I think that endowment is up to now.
I don’t know why they’d want to go to the mats with us about this. They have no legal right to the money, no moral right to the money, and it’s just going to be a costly headache and another PR nightmare for them.
(I think I used about 4% of my brain to arrive at this answer. I probably max out around 9%.)
UO Wrestler Alumnus Says:
July 12th, 2008 at 10:11 am
Jay,
Hey, I’m OK if you’re OK. Thanks for the sympathy notes. It just gets old on how the press views Oregon Wrestling in general. We are not the bad guys here. We are tired of getting pushed around by deceitful comments and claims.
From our viewpoint: July 13, 2007:
Wrestling is cut, baseball and competitive cheer added. Can you imagine what our friends, relatives, aquaintences said? competitive cheer? The jokes that came out about UO guaranteed at least a 2nd place in the NCAAs in competitive cheer? Also, the reason behind this decision is due to Title IX, per Renee Baumgartner? And for budget reasons?
So, SOW was formed. Money was raised. The attempts to contact Kilkenney became futile. Then, he was interviewed by the Portland Tribune. When asked about the decision to cut wrestling, Kilkenny again claimed Title IX and funding. When asked if both Title IX and funding concerns were addressed, then Kilkenny began to state where the wrestlers would work out and where the matches could be held. Kilkenny at that point was skeptical that we would even raise the kind of money needed, but THAT provided the hope and the message that we could reinstate our program if we could have these two items addressed.
Then - Ricky Stewart (UO Asst Coach) met with Kilkenny to review a plan that would provide the UO Wrestling Team the funds to continue our program. This was in February. Wrestling was in thick of competition, and we thought we were gaining some traction with money, facilities, etc. I don’t think that Ricky Stewart would twist the truth on this, but Kilkenny took the UO Wrestling plans for wrestling to stay as a sport and, and told Ricky that he will present this to the board and see if this would pass Title IX concerns. Any honest person would see that reasonable. Why get legal involved with Marion County at that point.
Then, in a turn of events, Neal Zambokus was on record for saying that cutting wrestling was not due to a Title IX concern. The reasons were lack of funding, lack of a workout facility, and lack of a support base for the sport. We addressed all of these concerns. Arizona State decided to cut wrestling and men’s swimming due to budget cuts. ASU’s wrestling team put together a plan that would fully fund their own program, and in two weeks, the program was reinstated.
After no comments, anything - even after Kilkenny took Ricky’s plans for reinstatement, the pipeline of communication turned cold. We then pulled the trigger on filing suit.
Can you see why we were strung along here?
Another thing that I think would be worthy of a news article: It should have been stated that the UO laywers on Monday asked for this lawsuit to be dismissed. That was their goal! Instead, Judge Ashcroft denied this dismissal. In my mind, that is a major defeat for the UO Athletic Department. The writers should have written, “OU Athletic Department’s request for Wrestlers lawsuit dismissal denied by Judge Lynn Ashcroft”. And then write: “Although Wrestlers’ request for an injunction was denied, a September 7th hearing by Judge Lynn Ashcroft was scheduled.
Now that is the fact.
Jay, I apologize for my previous comments. I hope you don’t hold that against the UO Wrestling Team or our efforts. Take it out on me. All we want to do is compete and bring home NCAA and Olympic champions to the State of Oregon. We also want to provide an excellent college education to our wrestlers.
Jay Says:
July 12th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Hank -
I think we both know why they are trying to hang to the money.
Because it’s money.
And I’m sure that Dale Thomas was a smart guy. But lawyers can find wriggle room in just about anything, not matter how tight the language.
I’ll name that tune with 3% of my brain.
Jay
DSN
truth seeker Says:
July 12th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Jay, nothing personal, but your clinging to the defense of the UO on this one is regettable. The endowment money is cut and dry, wrestling has been discontinued. The money gets turned over with the loss of the program. All sorts of scholarships are in university foundations all over the country with stiff by-laws and protocols for financial disbursement. You obviously are a loyal soldier to Pat K and gang, but there is no middle ground on this issue. What they are doing is deplorable. Yes, we want the kids to have the scholarships honored, but the university can do that. They have already exausted the allowable funds for the 07-08 year. Since they are adamant about not having a team in 08-09, that money should be gone. The guy from the foundation initially told Finley that it was the athletic departments request that the monies be kept and used for the hold overs from the dismantled program. Fin told them that the money was not for that kind of use, the interst had already been used for the year, and needed to be turned over. The guy from the foundation told him he was just passing on what the department had requested. Many of these athletes still at UO are the one’s so deep into their academic career and major that in their mind have no choice but to give up on wrestling and finish school at the UO. The guys that had their practice facility remodeled into a posh “rehab” center with waterfals, big screen TV’s and juice bars….with the promise of course that they would soon have a new workout room. Then later the administration switched course and didnt follow up with their end of the deal. Now they want to use money that is set aside for wrestlers and students, not students who are not allowed to wrestle. And like Hank said, with all of UO’s money, why would anyone with half a brain(or even 10%) blatantly violate the language of the trust over 10-12 thousand dollars. That sounds like spite to me, or maybe economic times aren’t as peachy in Eugene as we often hear. One could see with the baseball and basketball facility issues, the possible lost revenue on football parking, the baseball budget being around twice that Kilkenny announced it would be last July 13.
Not sure what movie studios have to do with UO wrestling and Dale Thomas money, but this whole
ordeal would make a helluva documentary or movie. Maybe Kenny Moore would like to write the script.
One thing that I am pretty sure about, when this administration leaves the athletic department offices, their is going to be a bit of a mess to clean up.
UO Wrestler Alumnus Says:
July 12th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
I want to say something that has been bugging me. Someone wrote something about during the Olympic Trials that several football players were spotted. Hey, that’s great. Good to hear that.
But when Ernie Kent, Justin Roper, and other UO athletic people were spotted at the PAC 10 Wrestling Tournament, nothing was said. In fact, Ernie Kent shared his view on the announcement of cutting the wrestling program in a conversation.
I also want to bring up another sore spot about Oregon Wrestling. There have beeen claims that the there is no fan support. Could somone please look up the dates and times of the more recent matches and tell me this was “prime time”. I wanted to attend a match this last season, but I showed up late. The schedule showed the match to start at 7:00pm on a Friday, when in fact the match started at 3:00pm. How many people can make that time? UO students are bolting for Portland, and most of the Portland people don’t get off work early enough to make it down. I remember when we had Friday night matches, we had a substantial amount of attendance at our matches. Kind of cool.
Also, the Pac 10 tournament was held on a Sunday-Monday. When I grew up, tournaments were usually Friday night and Saturday all day. For anyone going to the Pac 10 tournament, most of the alumni wrestlers and fans had to take time off from work to attend.
Can you imagine if football held their games on a Tuesday at 3:00pm? Would there be the attendance and support we see today? Probably not.
Jay Says:
July 12th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Zach -
I haven’t forgot about you.
Nike didn’t order the elimination of wrestling. They could have saved it. But an order did not come down from on top to cut it.
Actually, Phil Knight probably would have preferred that wrestling stuck around, considering baseball was reinstated.
Phil’s not a huge Oregon baseball fan. Track & Field is his love. Not baseball. And baseball will take away from some of that renewed Track & Field glory.
But Oregon went ahead and did it anyway. You won’t be hearing about any huge donations from Knight going to baseball.
Jay
DSN
Brian Says:
July 12th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
Oregon can’t be guaranteed a 2nd in the NCAA for cheer. The NCAA doesn’t sanction cheer, and it is not an emerging sport as they claim. Bill Gates, Michael Dell, and Steve Jobs may have not of graduated from college. They are also not running a major department at a state funded university. You know “higher education”. The message this sends to student athletes is disgraceful.
Curtis Sexton Says:
July 12th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
In court Pat KilKenny, in justifying dropping Wrestling: “We can’t be all things to all people.” Well Mr. KilKenny, just what is the U of Oregon trying to be to Oregon people? Secondly what is The U of Oregon trying to be to European People? Why is the U of Oregon trying to develop Europe’s Olympic Sports (i.e. Tennis). Are the parents of those foreign Ducks paying 9% income tax to the State of Oregon as I have for the past 37 years?
Zachary Vishanoff Says:
July 14th, 2008 at 9:58 am
What gets me is Phil still stands by the assertion that he didn’t fire the track coach. It is like these bodies keep floating to the surface-westmoreland housing , wrestling program, track coaches etc. and no one knows what the source is. I know Salazar was brought in to replace the other coach by NIKE(with all his techno gizmos-some of which helped displace the wrestlers)for the”healing center” underwater treadmills by “anonymous” Phit L.L.C. Phil denies firing the track coach-like Bart Simpson says-I didn’t do it. Okay he paid someone else to do it. The RG always frames Phils response like the last word on a matter. Speaking of press is anyone esle ready to barf if they see another Lannana/Kilkenny and how they should be worshipped article by the rg?Now the pathetic Eugene city council is chiming too. Curtis Anderson and Bellamy are so integrated why dont they just do marketing for Nike and give up the “I am in the news business “charade. They do not answer my questions on this but perhaps others have noticed their”news”- endless triumphant “these two guys saved the world” crap day after day. Salazar and the oly trials/rupp/oregon project were a package deal-all or nothing. The RG defended sport pork barrell package overflowed into wrestling real estate and so they got re evaluated/through a corporate Nike agenda lens. Location, money and scorched earth “godfather” style politics makes it all very simple. But I am open to being corrected too.When is the last time you saw a story explaining how the Oregon Project got moved to Eugene. That has not been covered but it has occured. One reason it has not been covered is because if you are too busy getting rid of the body of the last track coach you may not bring focus directly on the new one your are moving in(with all the unanswered bioethics international WADA controversy/technology in tow)
Cheap Shot MF Says:
July 17th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
I love all the support for the Oregon Wrestling program, but really, the only person with any common knowledge and sense, seems to be Hank Hosfield. The program is dead, and has been since Fin left the program. Take all donations to save Oregon wrestling and pay for Fin’s retirement, he deserves it.
Quality MF Says:
July 17th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Fat chance!
Finley would donate this money to Save Oregon Wrestling. Finley wouldn’t accept this anyway - so I’m back to this point - I will donate $2000.00 to the Duck Athletic Fund - ONLY if they would continue wrestling.
I know Hank, and believe me he is working very hard to get Oregon Wrestling continued like the rest of us. You say “Fin”, but you really don’t know him.
Alumni Says:
July 17th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
I would also do the same Quality MF. I firmly believe if they would give us a reasonable and realistic price tag, similar to what ASU did, the target would be met. Instead they have used smokescreens and backdoor manuevering, and have not negotiated in good faith. On July 13th, 2007 the reasons for droppi g were money and Title 9. Now the reasons have changed umteen times.
Quality MF Says:
July 17th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
This is just the beginning. Can you believe the amount of money that will pour into the DAF once Wrestling is continued at the UO?
I’m sure the athletic department could use the money donated from SOW so far.
Roseanna Says:
July 18th, 2008 at 12:22 am
Pfft. The wrestling issue is now becoming blog dogma/mind shizz given to whatever agenda will mention it. Likely a couple posters as one. This is typical of long term poster boredom. Point, counterpoint no matter how stupid sounding to the rest of us until a ‘real issue’ arises in the dog days. Like football……in August……like ‘can we feel it’? HUSKIES IN AUGUST?? Get OUT with that!!! I’m done with the serious for now. It’s time for PLAY !
Zachary Vishanoff Says:
July 18th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
The wrestlers are not going anywhere!- Kilkenny’s going to be the one dumped because he will get tangled in the web of attached strings and pissed off professors. The grassroots wider community is on the side of the wrestlers and will be increasingly involved. Naysayers accidentally drank NIKE’s koolaid is my view on this subject.
Quality MF Says:
July 18th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Roseana Roseanna Danna,
Get on the Bus!
Sept. 7th is just around the corner. Will you commit to Wrestling Season Tickets - WHEN- the Wrestling program continues at the UO? We have about 3500 people set up to buy. More for later!
Get on the Bus!
Curtis Sexton Says:
July 18th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
In my view, the fundamental question for the court is: 1. Did U of O discriminate against men by eliminating Men’s Wrestling?
A. Rene Baumgartner testified under oath that only wrestling and men’s tennis were considered for elimination.
B. Rene Baumgartner testified that she holds the title and responsibility as “Women’s Athletics Advocate”.
C Pat KilKenny testified that there is no one with the responsibility of Men’s Athletics Advocate at the U of O.
D. Pat KilKenny requested and received a “Power Point Presentation” from Rene B. .–”Women’s Advocate” but did not receive nor request a Report from a Men’s Athletics Advocate.
In Oregon law we value men and women equally. This concept is fundamental to American life but foreign in concept to the U of O Athletic Administration.
If Duck wrestling goes down, men and women everywhere will be diminished in value.
Quality MF Says:
July 18th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
Also,
Roseana Roseanna Danna,
Remember the Olympics start August 8th. Get your cable set up to watch the Wrestling!!!
That will get you over the August blues!
Might get you hooked on wrestling enough to GET ON THE BUS!
Roseanna Says:
July 19th, 2008 at 8:41 am
Get on the bus?!
“The wheels on the bus go ’round and ’round
‘Round and ’round
The wheels on the bus go ’round and ’round
All through the town.”
Kinda like these conversations of late. :) Poster boredom sets in when the same points and subjects are brought up repeatedly to the same bloggers. It dilutes your effort…in my opinion.
Actually, I don’t have ‘the August blues’ as such, just anxious for the football season. But I do have empathy and have stated my support for SOW’s cause. You’re preaching to the choir here.
Zachary Vishanoff Says:
July 19th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Blogs can go blah blah about whatever they want when she spindoctors and the blahgers got to sleep the policy wonks stay up and design a successful case using the facts plan to topple the UO house of cards. Then DESERVING programs can pick up the pieces of what remains and resume the game with UO meaning more than a flashy marketing gimmick. If the wrestlers lose in court that is round 1. big deal. they are going to prevail in the long run because they have widespread public support(and nationwide). Also because they are right about the laws .
DuckHappy Says:
July 20th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Funny thing about Wrestlers. We NEVER QUIT!
Roseana Roseanna Danna,
Get on the Bus!!!!
Jay,
Get on the Bus!
Kilkenny,
Get on the Bus!
Renee Mack (Baumgartner),
Get on the Bus!
Cuz we don’t quit.
DuckHappy Says:
July 21st, 2008 at 9:33 am
Roseana Roseanna Danna,
Are you still bored? Tired of smoking all of those boring cigarettes (coughing up nicotine residue), drinking strong coffee, and eating all of those grease laden day-old donuts? Tired of reading the same sports pages over and over and over again? Crap everywhere? Hungry for some football? Won’t come until August 30th.
Until then, you should tune into the Olympics - starting August 8th.
Just having some fun with you. I do have to agree with you - and I can’t wait either until August 30th.
Zachary Vishanoff Says:
July 21st, 2008 at 11:47 am
Or just go to the UO arena smackdown tonight for a good laugh and quack attack fodder. 7:30 pm at the Eugene city council chamber. Simple equation: delay arena= “back stop” gift dumps Kilkenny. the end. Wrestlers ought to join in-we can get a accountable arena project, someday, but this lame duck project at hand has morphed to a turkey.
Roseanna Says:
July 21st, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Okay…okay, okay. I realize you’re just having fun. :) Cigarettes and donuts………eeeehhhh YUCK! I will take a cup of strong coffee, though.
Some opines of mine:
I don’t care much for the Olympics anymore and I think it’s a media thing. It’s overwhelming and it’s usually time zone challenged. Then there’s either not enough or too much coverage. NBC did a terrible job with the T & F Trials in Eugene but swimming was all agog due to space-age suits. So what? They swim faster and are aided. I should get excited about THIS? I’ve got too many other good things going with my time.
On Track and Field? Well..first off, we know they won’t show ‘Field’ any more than they did at the Trials. And Track? Well…that will be interesting.
On the alley hearing tonight…I just can’t see that it won’t go to UO. An alley that is bounded by UO property and gated at one end. Could we please major in something more minor? If this is what the Fairmount neighborhood has been waiting for, then shame on you. But I rather imagine it’s a last ditch effort for those who think an arena at all should be turned down for that location. Face it…that’s not happening.
In my opinion for those interested in a mutually beneficial outcome, get ON the negotiation bandwagon or else get steamrolled like crazy.
Herein lies the problem: most people would rather fight than compromise. Why? Because both ‘loose’ something. The chance you take in continued fighting for it all is that you loose more than you’d ever bargained for … whether you’re ‘on the bus’ or not.
DuckHappy Says:
July 21st, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Whoa Whoa Whoa Nellie!
I AM IN FAVOR OF THE ARENA! Nike built or not! Mac Court is the most uncomfortable place to sit in. I didn’t realize it until I sat in the stands during the PAC 10 Wrestling Tournament. I was always wrestling in Mac Court, not in the stands.
I just want my beloved UO to have Wrestling (Mens and Womens) continued. Period. I think it would be awesome to see them wrestle in this new arena.
As for Wrestling, there is so much to be gained at the UO. I also think that the UO folks have a flaw in their judgement, and made a quick decision before really understnading the facts, whether you like a sport or not. I actually feel sorry for Renee Baumgartner and Pat Kilkenny. I know in my heart they are good people, but sometimes, you have to roll with the punches and be there for the athletics and not let politics or “feelings” get in the way.
I honestly think that Pat Kilkenny had a vendetta against Wrestling. Back in 1981, Wrestling stayed and Baseball was cut. Now, it’s payback time. Right Pat?
As for Renee Baumgartner, I think there was something that Chuck Kearney did or say that didn’t sit well with Renee. I know who Renee is and what her upbringing was like - a lot like mine. I respect her and I will always respect her. But I also know Chuck and his philosophies. More than likely they did not mesh very well with Renee.
Too bad us Wrestlers couldn’t have intervened earlier. Yes, there are some of the wrestlers who skipped classes, etc. BUT, most of us earned our degrees and are now doctors, business leaders, lawyers, teachers, coaches, etc. I am actually amazed of how many of my teammates became doctors….
Anyway, this mess could have been avoided. Too bad both parties can bring their legals together and work something out with Wrestling. It won’t cost the UO any money to keep wrestling. Maybe in return, the UO Wrestling Team could make a commitment to being a major part of the “pit crew” during Women’s Cheer competitions.
Just a thought….
Roseanna Says:
July 21st, 2008 at 9:47 pm
I don’t feel sorry for Baumgartner or Kilkenny. They are being paid big bucks. Or in Kilkenny’s case, he’s being given etheric kudos to deny money he doesn’t need and is probably worth alot more in that capacity since most can’t imagine it.
The reason Wrestling is cut? It’s not current with sports marketing that brings revenue in advertising. People don’t key on high school sports unless they are involved. Wrestling takes involvement to know. The other reason? That unknown factor nobody wants or is allowed to about. The feminine power source that prefers, among other things, baseball… and would like to see a few changes. This element, interestingly, endorses the fem cheer side although it totally sells out the true feminine athlete. When that subject is mined…which it won’t be…understanding will be complete.
Jay Says:
July 21st, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Zach -
Dude, you no-show at the City Coucil meeting tonight? What gives?
Happy Birthday.
Jay
DSN
DuckHappy Says:
July 22nd, 2008 at 9:33 am
It’s too bad that they just didn’t install women’s wrestling. The cost would be minimal and it wouldn’t have given the UO Athletic Department the shame of trying to shoe-horn and force a sport that only a fraction of the public really cares about onto a public university.
Sad. But hey, it’s your tax dollars speaking here.
DuckHappy Says:
July 22nd, 2008 at 9:37 am
Zach didn’t show?
Not good Dude, you should have taken the Nike advise: JUST DO IT!
Ditto on Happy Birthday.
Zachary Vishanoff Says:
July 22nd, 2008 at 11:50 am
I did show but I had all my testimony in a huge stack that I handed to city staff. UO wanted to dilute the legalities with a bunch of go ducks happy talk I could tell. It would have meant lots of waiting. I had this love letter I had to go email my ex-wife too! Sometimes noisy people like myself who have little remaining energy for UO land use nonsense must know when and where to use that energy. In a chamber full of their entire sports community is probably not at this moment my most effective playing field. I am sure it was interesting and I will be reviewing all the comments and submissions of all types in written form. If you caught my comments on KPNW monday around a.m. news show you know I have been able to get my point to the city council. After I review the newest UO land use lies I will go out to CTV channel 29 where they do something nearly unheard of now. Periodically they produce half hour interviews with me on the subject of nike uo growth .there have been three so far. There are no ads so it is a great opportunity to demystify the arena nonsense the right way and in some level of detail. When the next 30 min interview airs I will post here next time. so anyway there are a few excuses for being awol anyway. thanks too, my birthday was interesting for sure. Having that hearing over is good and the public record will be open for quite a while from what it says in todays r.g. That is good news because if any wild claims were made at the hearing or in the record they can be countered in writing and submitted. Did not check d.s.n yet but I am sure you are linking the rg on this. also think about a link at the article so that if any readers would like to send in their input(in favor or opposed) to the city in the important case that there is something near the article to make that clear and possible? Did the players testify?
Zachary Vishanoff Says:
July 22nd, 2008 at 11:56 am
our duck, the only reason the alley and other uo benchmarks may get delayed or worse is too much is known and provable about their wider intentions(public/private sport-themed condoland development). Our corrupt governor can only get it streamlined to a certain extent. Kelo vs. New London may not mean much to you but more UO Nike property seizures could proceed up the courts faster than you can say “just doze it”.
truth seeker Says:
July 22nd, 2008 at 4:42 pm
So does a vendetta by a view essentially warrent a discrimination suit? If I am hearing correct, these kids and the future kids as well were essentially discriminated against because a few people didnt like a few people………
Zachary Vishanoff Says:
July 22nd, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Also Jay if you ever feel the need to read the ten point quack attack I would have launched into to summarize arena plan issues and flaws if I would have been willing to wait through that stuff last night I would gadly nail it down here. By that I mean the most basic reasons the arena deal is off track and headed for 100% train political trainwreck.
Zachary Vishanoff Says:
July 22nd, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Being supportive of this existing arena proposal means inadvertently supporting handing over the keys to NIKE at UO on all things until further notice-that is the legacy-the legacy of perpetual control. Will Oregon own the arena or will it own them? Will UO own the arena or will NIKE/PHIT L.L.C./ J.M.I. ?. The same firm doing the arena built the Rose Garden also. Will the UO facility go belly up like the Garden did? Will it be designed with that outcome and faulty/unrealistic projections so a rich donor can bail it out for cheap and entirely privatize it later? That might allow a very cheap deal if it does not work for UO .Would UO/UO Foundation rush bad numbers and projections to fail a publicly funded project so their rich friends can scoop it up later? Why not “just do” that? I do not think Bellamy would call them on that do you? Has he ever been to the Rose Garden? Also if you seize land for a public purpose and tank the project would not that allow it to goto private hands again. Eminent domain is tricky for UO and I believe that is why the pledge letter of P.K . (the one Rachel Bachman has written about in the Oregonian)is so specific. The letter insures expansive future UO land seizures stay legally sustainable by mandating the legacy “goose egg” gift stay intact and be “leveraged” towards public bonds. Nike, if I have anything unclear here please clarify.
David C. Nelson Says:
July 22nd, 2008 at 8:13 pm
I took a two-week hiatus from the DSN, but I’m back. Here’s my only comment on this thread.
Jay: “What we haven’t heard is that Finley believes that the UO can cut a program. And that’s interesting because I don’t believe all of the wrestling supporters agree with that statement.”
Most thoughtful people on both sides of the wrestling issue would probably say, “that depends.” They wouldn’t say, “well the wrestling coach said sports could be cut, so that settles it.”
More than a dozen years ago, Tulane University cut its basketball program (and brought it back after two years) when its players got involved with gamblers in a point-shaving scandal. Tulane was a private school and the offense was egregious. There wasn’t much to contend.
The question becomes complex when a state school cuts a program for reasons that are debatable from legal and procedural standpoints, as well as from the interests of the residents of the state.
EIA-Oregon will contend in court that the UO violated aspects of Oregon constitutional, statute, and case law. The University of Oregon is a state agency, not a private school. Despite recent claims of athletic department fiscal autonomy, there is questionable justification for a university department to claim an enhanced degree of decision making because, for the last five or ten years, it hasn’t relied on the taxpayers to fund its ball teams–as it did for more than a century prior.
Baumgartner testified under oath that the only sports considered for cutting were wrestling and men’s tennis. Since she and Kilkenny also testified that federal Title IX compliance did not mandate the cutting of wrestling, attorneys for the wrestlers will argue that Oregon state law prohibits consideration of cutting a men’s sport without equal consideration being given to cutting a women’s one.
That’s what makes this case so fascinating. For three decades, college sports fans have been programmed to believe that women’s sports are sacrosanct while men’s sports can be cut at will. If the wrestlers’ lawyers prevail, this will constitute a landmark case because it adjudicates discrimination against men. Maybe some of the bedrock economic conservatives who argue that the athletic director should be able to make whatever decisions he wants will also discover that they have a socially conservative side that would cheer this development.
EIA-Oregon attorneys will also contend, with the help of decisions promulgated by David B. Frohnmayer when he was attorney general, that state agencies have to adhere to their own guidelines. Apparently, Kilkenny consulted with the head of the IAC prior to announcing his decision, but did not approach the full committee until afterward. Will the court see that as adequate observation of internal procedure? That’s why we have courts of law.
Outside of the legal issues, there are considerations in the proverbial court of public opinion. This is the U of O, not Willamette University nor the Seattle Seahawks. Do the people of Oregon retain some equity interest in the sports teams they funded from the public coffers for a hundred years, despite the fact that one particular athletic department claims newfound financial self-support?
The 1975 wrestling team that I publicized, Oregon’s first conference champion, produced six Oregon public school coaches and teachers from its starting lineup of ten. As each athlete attended school on a partial scholarship, that’s quite a return on investment for the taxpayers—which supported the athletic department in those days. It’s a better return than they received on scholarship athletes from other sports, who customarily took their taxpayer-financed education out of state with them when they went home after graduation.
Do the taxpayers have an interest in keeping the only varsity sport at the UO that staffs its roster primarily from the ranks of Oregon high school graduates, and which presumably will provide a group of college graduates motivated by homegrown roots to remain in the state and use their education for the benefit of Oregonians?
How independent is the self-sustaining UO athletic department? Does it pay property tax on Autzen Stadium and McArthur Court, as would the owners of a private facility? The land occupied by the new sports arena, including that purchased from private owners (Williams Bakery), will not be taxed to support the public schools. If Oregon had a sales tax, which it may enact one day, would the financially autonomous athletic department be liable to pay taxes on tickets and concessions? How about taxes on those luxury boxes that the state will forego because the athletic department is an arm of a state agency?
So, Jay, don’t rely on Ron Finley as to whether the athletic department has the right to cut a sport. That’s a question for all Oregonians–and for judges trained in the law– one beyond the purview of an ordinary wrestling coach.